The school counseler thinks my boy has oppositional defiance

[Squeak 17]

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This would come down to, in my mind, that the large majority of elementary school teachers I've had to deal with are idiots.

Pretty much. There are good teachers out there, but considering they are in a 35:1 ratio (in Denver, at least), those few spend their entire day managing the kids, not teaching them. Considering what we pay teachers, what do we expect?

For as much time as they have off, they get paid well. If their pay rate continued for the 3 1/2 months combined vacation they have each year, then they would make well more. Having all that time off comes at a price.

Being a teacher, I would rather be paid baby sitting rates. I would earn substantially more if I did.

Different country, different pay rates/school schedules.

Nope Ill pretty much guarantee that teachers there earn less than if they were paid baby sitting rates

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[riddler 0]

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Having all that time off comes at a price.

If we're going to use logic to describe payscales, can anyone explain why we pay CEOs of huge corporations tens of millions of dollars, and they drive said corporations into bankruptcy?

Personally, I think if we educated our children well, we would end up with a productive society. That is worth any price, but it takes long-term planning. Something Americans aren't very good at anymore.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[JeanJeanie 0]

A few weeks ago my 6 year-old son was having a hard time following directions (actually, he seems to have this often); his teacher told me that he was doing exactly what he was told NOT to do. He then was doing the same to me.

When I asked him, "why is it that you insist to do exactly the opposite of what you are asked", his answer, "I thought it was OPPOSITE DAY!"

I almost pissed myself. . . just a little.

I guess that it "oppositional defiance" defined by the perpetrator.

~~We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly~~MLK

[oldwomanc6 38]

"I thought it was OPPOSITE DAY!"

I almost pissed myself. . . just a little.

I guess that it "oppositional defiance" defined by the perpetrator.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[skymama 35]

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If we're going to use logic to describe payscales, can anyone explain why we pay CEOs of huge corporations tens of millions of dollars, and they drive said corporations into bankruptcy?

Let's keep discussion like that in SC please.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[catfishhunter 1]

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A few weeks ago my 6 year-old son was having a hard time following directions (actually, he seems to have this often); his teacher told me that he was doing exactly what he was told NOT to do. He then was doing the same to me.

When I asked him, "why is it that you insist to do exactly the opposite of what you are asked", his answer, "I thought it was OPPOSITE DAY!"

I almost pissed myself. . . just a little.

I guess that it "oppositional defiance" defined by the perpetrator.

awesome LOL

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[gonzalesna 0]

What are these so-called rule things you speak of?

Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie.

[shropshire 0]

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What are these so-called rule things you speak of?

um...not married then?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Rick 67]

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This would come down to, in my mind, that the large majority of elementary school teachers I've had to deal with are idiots.

Pretty much. There are good teachers out there, but considering they are in a 35:1 ratio (in Denver, at least), those few spend their entire day managing the kids, not teaching them. Considering what we pay teachers, what do we expect?

For as much time as they have off, they get paid well. If their pay rate continued for the 3 1/2 months combined vacation they have each year, then they would make well more. Having all that time off comes at a price.

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My sister in law is a teacher here in Florida. With all the extra record keeping and paperwork that gets dumped on her I think she makes up for the 2 months off she gets with overtime during the school year.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[PhreeZone 14]

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Different country, different pay rates/school schedules.

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We can take this one to SC but I will disagree with that 100% having lived it for the last 4 years. What other job requires you to supply everything for your job and then watch it get destroyed every year and then have to start over the next year? I have bought close to $800 worth of books for the classroom each year for the last 4 years and get to collect a box of shredded paper and books that are missing 1/2 their pages to throw away at the end of every school year. See all those borders on the bulletin boards? Schools do not supply those, teachers buy them. See all the reading books in the classroom? Teachers had to supply those. See all the classroom activities and toys and just about everything minus the desks and the chairs? Teachers had to buy all of that out of their pocket. Sure, we get a $200 deduction on our taxes but its not even close to what gets spent to make sure the kids have materials so they can learn while in the classroom.

This is all for a job that requires a Masters degree and continuing college classes every year making less than $30k after 4 years on the job. Lets add in the hours and hours a week spent grading reports at home, fielding calls from parents on why problems were marked wrong on tests and then most of the weekend preparing the lessons for the next week. I added the hours up in terms of time in the classroom, grading, planning and working with parents on behavior issues in a week and it was approaching 60 hours.

As for the "3 month Vacation"? School ends first or second week of June. It then takes most of the next week to break the classroom down and remove all the belongings for it so it can be cleaned over the summer. Then there was the final grading at home in there too. Week or two spent finalizing all the student records to move with the students so the next year teacher can have their records. We wrapped up all the paperwork around the third week of June this year. There were 8-10 days that the Teachers had to report in for training and CPR certification during July and then they had to return all the supplies to the classroom the second week of August and have all the classrooms signed off on by the middle of the third week for school to start the next week. In addition there was the almost mandatory college courses and professional development courses that we had to pay out of pocket for over the summer. That was not including the optional summer school that they taught and we did for the money that took up the first 2 weeks of August. Total time off school for the whole summer? 4 weeks and its impossible to pick up a second job since you can only work for the end of June - end of July.

Babysitting rates pay out a LOT more when you look at the real time put in by teachers. I know a few teachers that have found it to pay out better to quit teaching for a few years to avoid paying out the childcare expenses when they have a child.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[AggieDave 6]

After typing out a long response, I decided to keep this one from being moved to SC.

I'm glad that you care, but a large majority of elementary school teachers I've had to deal with professionally really pulled the curtain back. My in-laws are administrators at a large school district in Texas. Same elitism there, as well the unwillingness to look past the little social bubble of their schools.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[gonzalesna 0]

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What are these so-called rule things you speak of?

um...not married then?

Why would anyone want to spend the rest of their lives hypothetically slamming their penis in the door?

Some people refrain from beating a dead horse. Personally, I find a myriad of entertainment value when beating it until it becomes a horse-smoothie.

[shropshire 0]

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What are these so-called rule things you speak of?

um...not married then?

Why would anyone want to spend the rest of their lives hypothetically slamming their penis in the door?

IF only I'd asked myself that question earlier ... damn too late now

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[lurch 0]

I think this is awesome.
The kid that marches to his own drum now will make his world the way he wants it when he's older.
Unless the spirit gets beaten out of him he's fated to -not- be your typical "sheep" anonymous boring person.

Probably also means kid is smart enough to know when he's being bullshitted... or will soon. I was "oppositionally defiant" all through school. I was aware, then, that many teachers were, deep inside, petty little martinets that get off on trying to take energetic kids, crush down that energy and force them to march in neat little lines. I understood early, that most of the rules imposed on kids have no other purpose than to have rules to make the kid follow purely for the supposedly educational benefit of making a kid follow rules... a stupidity that enraged me back then and still does.

I remember a French teacher... took it upon himself to stand at a hallway intersection and be a human traffic light. Being a speedy little thing I used to tear ass around the corner, cutting the corner to the inside if the hallway was empty. This prick would stop me, or try to, and force me to walk around him, walk the outside radius of that corner. He had some notion that the hallway was supposed to have lanes, like a highway, whether there was anyone there or not, and that kids should adhere to these invisible nonexistent lanes. My cutting the corner at that intersection, especially while running, violated that. Ooh, oh no, a running kid, might bump into somebody.

This guy would stop me and try to make me -walk- and insist that no, I must slowly and deliberately walk the outside of that corner like it was a ritual procession because he says so. Frustrated, I was like "Why?" he says "Its the principle of the thing." I was like "What "Principle" Principle of WHAT, exactly?" And of course like all who think rules for their own sake are self-justified, he could not or would not actually give a straight answer. Instead the response would boil down to "Stop questioning and just Obey. The purpose is to make you Obey so you learn to Obey." This serves no function except to piss off kids who just wanna pass through without being hassled. I reached the conclusion that the man was a fucking idiot and derived great pleasure from frustrating him, turning the tables, duck past behind him, on the inside, while he's hassling someone else, and let him see me after I was too far down the hall to bother trying to catch. Once or twice he even came after me, his only purpose to bring me back to that spot and march me through the wider radius of the corner as if he thought I were a trained animal that would stick to that path if he made me walk it enough times.

That same defiance served me very well in the real world... when things went to hell, job loss, car dies in the middle of the desert, whatever, that impudent defiance and habit of finding my own way of handling things they failed to beat outta me would cause me to be like "Oh hell no fuck you I ain't giving up THAT easy" and I'd find a way to win... get the next job, fix the car, whatever the challenge may be.

Be ready to explain any rules to this kid to the kid's satisfaction in as much detail as the kid needs... and your answers better be good and actually make sense or the kids gonna call you on it and/or ignore it with the contempt of a kid who knows he's smarter than the grownups making and enforcing those rules. And if those rules do not in fact have a logical, sensible and effective reason for existence, the kid will be right. And worse... he'll KNOW he's right...which is why he won't obey.

You absolutely can NOT tame or control a kid like that and forcing him to jump through hoops for the sake of learning to jump through hoops on command will only make it worse... kid will obey alright, with a smirk of contempt on his face and he will be plotting some way to get a dig in later as payback. Specifically to make you feel the same frustration you made HIM feel. And the kid will gain enormous satisfaction from forcing you to feel that frustration.

Ask me how I know this... I was so successful at it that I am told my 3rd grade teacher quit...retired...because of ME.
You can't force discipline on a kid like that, best you can do is teach the kid how and why it is necessary that he learn to discipline and control himself. Teach the kid to keep the defiance, channel it in a useful direction and add self control, he'll be unstoppable and all life's slings and arrows'll just bounce right off him.

If I ever have a kid of my own I look forward to having the little tyke challenge me. Because for that kid, I will remember how I saw things then, and I'll treat him as I wish adults had treated me when I was small... like a human being with a mind of his own. The few who DID treat me with that respect, were unforgettable and they were the teachers that made all the difference to me.
-B

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[catfishhunter 1]

Sounds like we have a lot in common. Why I am not overly concerned but there are things I wish my parents had taken notice of as I was/am the same way as my son.

I think Life would have been a little easier with some direction and understanding instead of punishment which just taught me to be more careful with what I could get away with.

As for Teachers (which was a HUGE thread drift) I think they have a hard job and for the most part they really love what they are doing or they wouldn't keep doing it. It is important for everyone (including them)to remember that they are only people and they are as fallible as the next.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Having all that time off comes at a price.

If we're going to use logic to describe payscales, can anyone explain why we pay CEOs of huge corporations tens of millions of dollars, and they drive said corporations into bankruptcy?

Personally, I think if we educated our children well, we would end up with a productive society. That is worth any price, but it takes long-term planning. Something Americans aren't very good at anymore.

We pay them what they are worth at the time. Many CEO's have cut their teeth and proven themselves. To run the companies they run, they earn the pay. That is not to say that they are not human and fail from time to time. Just like a highly recruited college athlete or NFL vet that flops after the next contract is signed. It happens and that focus is another reason why we are no closer to solutions.... only blame. I digress .... i don't want this to end up a speakers corner debate.... onward and upward.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Rstanley0312 0]

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Different country, different pay rates/school schedules.

***

We can take this one to SC but I will disagree with that 100% having lived it for the last 4 years. What other job requires you to supply everything for your job and then watch it get destroyed every year and then have to start over the next year? I have bought close to $800 worth of books for the classroom each year for the last 4 years and get to collect a box of shredded paper and books that are missing 1/2 their pages to throw away at the end of every school year. See all those borders on the bulletin boards? Schools do not supply those, teachers buy them. See all the reading books in the classroom? Teachers had to supply those. See all the classroom activities and toys and just about everything minus the desks and the chairs? Teachers had to buy all of that out of their pocket. Sure, we get a $200 deduction on our taxes but its not even close to what gets spent to make sure the kids have materials so they can learn while in the classroom.

This is all for a job that requires a Masters degree and continuing college classes every year making less than $30k after 4 years on the job. Lets add in the hours and hours a week spent grading reports at home, fielding calls from parents on why problems were marked wrong on tests and then most of the weekend preparing the lessons for the next week. I added the hours up in terms of time in the classroom, grading, planning and working with parents on behavior issues in a week and it was approaching 60 hours.

As for the "3 month Vacation"? School ends first or second week of June. It then takes most of the next week to break the classroom down and remove all the belongings for it so it can be cleaned over the summer. Then there was the final grading at home in there too. Week or two spent finalizing all the student records to move with the students so the next year teacher can have their records. We wrapped up all the paperwork around the third week of June this year. There were 8-10 days that the Teachers had to report in for training and CPR certification during July and then they had to return all the supplies to the classroom the second week of August and have all the classrooms signed off on by the middle of the third week for school to start the next week. In addition there was the almost mandatory college courses and professional development courses that we had to pay out of pocket for over the summer. That was not including the optional summer school that they taught and we did for the money that took up the first 2 weeks of August. Total time off school for the whole summer? 4 weeks and its impossible to pick up a second job since you can only work for the end of June - end of July.

Babysitting rates pay out a LOT more when you look at the real time put in by teachers. I know a few teachers that have found it to pay out better to quit teaching for a few years to avoid paying out the childcare expenses when they have a child.

There are bad teachers and good teachers just like in every other profession. Sadly the system is what is broken.... I know that I would never trust a school teacher or professional to tell me my kid has something listed in the DSM IV. To the OP..... my 8 yr old is very similar... I just try to create good healthy boundaries and use my judgement to know when it is time to let the boy lead or do his own thing. It sure isn't easy.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[VideoFly 0]

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School counselors aren't qualified to "diagnose" kids. They are not medical professionals.

Exactly correct. Not only are school counselors not qualified to give a medical diagnosis, they are not allowed to. As a school principal with 25 years in schools, I would hope that parents would let me know when employees (counselors included) do not follow the rules. Who’s got ODD now?

That said, as an educational professional, I agree that school faculty and staff members are underpaid, but that is no excuse for malpractice.

One more thing. For your sake and the best interest of your child, try to support teachers by instilling within your child, the desire and ability to follow a teacher’s directions. In the long run, all involved are better off. If you feel a teacher’s requests are unreasonable, take your concerns to an administrator.