DZ's with no set turn pattern

[ddettloff17 0]

I'm new to the sport( 38 jumps), but i have been fortunate enough to visit 5 or 6 DZ's. Every time i went to a new DZ i asked for a tour, the best outs, landing area and turn patterns. At more than one the answer i got was "whatever you feel like" or "there isn't one just watch the traffic". Is this normal? At my home DZ they drilled turning patterns into us and told us to ask when visiting DZ's. With USPA focusing on canopy safety i thought this would be a good thing to know.

[Para5-0 0]

Well,
Welcome to the sport. You have found a problem that skydivers have been addressing for a long time. I will give you the short answer because if you search landing patterns you could probably read for a month straight.
A good portion, but not all dropzones try to use a left handed pattern. The reason is for predictability. If everyone is entering the same pattern then you will have a somewhat good idea of what the other guy is doing. Not to say they will do what is expected. Always keep your head on a swivel. You were taught 1000' downwind, 600'base, and 300 feet final. Now it will either be a left or right pattern. I would grab an instructor at the DZ you are jumping at and have him go into more detail with you. Most Dropzones just dont say look out and do whatever you want. In this day, with canopy incidents on the rise a smooth, predictable landing pattern with proper seperation between canopies should be your goal.
note there are dropzones that prefer a right hand pattern due to hazzards or for some other reason. Not all are left.

[pilotdave 0]

My first time at a DZ a couple years ago, I asked what the pattern was. "Don't hit anybody" was the official answer. Not even the tandem instructors could land in the same direction. I jumped there a lot that year... made me appreciate my home DZ that much more.
Dave

[NWFlyer 2]

Asking at every DZ is the right thing to do as there is no standard.

If the answer makes you uncomfortable, watch a load or two and figure out the part of the landing area where no one else lands ... go land there (assuming of course, it's a nice, flat, open area that just happens to be a longer walk ... that's usually the case).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[popsjumper 2]

Name the DZs that told you those things.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[agentsmith413 0]

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My first time at a DZ a couple years ago, I asked what the pattern was. "Don't hit anybody" was the official answer. Not even the tandem instructors could land in the same direction. I jumped there a lot that year... made me appreciate my home DZ that much more.
Dave

I was thinking the same thing. the last dz i was at basically told me just watch traffic. I landed safely but still i like a set landing pattern.

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, all used up, and loudly proclaiming: Wow, what a ride!

[riggerrob 558]

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My first time at a DZ a couple years ago, I asked what the pattern was. "Don't hit anybody" was the official answer. Not even the tandem instructors could land in the same direction. I jumped there a lot that year... made me appreciate my home DZ that much more.
Dave

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My pet peeve is DZs that nail a landing pattern to manifest wall, but instructors set a bad example by landing in whatever %$#@! direction they feel like!

[rhanold 0]

Hey ddettloff17,
I have a feeling we have met IRL but I am not sure.

Any way, I know some DZ's set a landing direction but no pattern if the landing area is on the larger side. The thought being there is more room in the pattern as long as you stay on your side of the landing area.

Landing patterns become useful if everyone is filing into a narrow landing area IMO.

Blue Skies,
Ryan

P.S. That is Larry with you in your avatar, correct?

[D22369 0]

My pet peeve is DZs that nail a landing pattern to manifest wall, but instructors set a bad example by landing in whatever %$#@! direction they feel like! ***

+1 - amen!!

I love dz's that are hardasses about landing directions, and actually punish transgressors (few and far between) - hell... a dz manager almost killed me and himself flying against the traffic once when I was down in california, the dzo's response was "he does that all the time".... stupid is as stupid does and since he was a good ol boy it was all good...

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[stayhigh 2]

I love it when they go,
"Pattern??? Just don't hook yourself in."

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[craigbey 0]

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"whatever you feel like" or "there isn't one just watch the traffic".

This is sometimes also known as the "First Man Down" rule.

[Remster 24]

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"whatever you feel like" or "there isn't one just watch the traffic".

This is sometimes also known as the "First Man Down" rule.

Not quite. The DZ's that I have jumped at with a first mad down rule, also have a landing pattern. The first man down sets the landing direction.

Remster

[Para5-0 0]

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"whatever you feel like" or "there isn't one just watch the traffic".

This is sometimes also known as the "First Man Down" rule.

I am not a fan of this but I have seen places it works for them. Problem is the first man down now adays is usually a highly loaded swooper or video guy. and we know they always land into the wind, right

[riggerrob 558]

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"whatever you feel like" or "there isn't one just watch the traffic".

This is sometimes also known as the "First Man Down" rule.

I am not a fan of this but I have seen places it works for them. Problem is the first man down nowadays is usually a highly loaded swooper or video guy. and we know they always land into the wind, right

.....................................................................

Better DZs follow USPA guidelines in establishing a separate landing pattern and a separate landing area for fast canopies.
Better DZs tell visiting and junior jumpers: "Here is the standard landing pattern and ignore/avoid the fast stuff near the swoop lane."

[JSE 1]

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Any way, I know some DZ's set a landing direction but no pattern if the landing area is on the larger side. The thought being there is more room in the pattern as long as you stay on your side of the landing area.

Landing patterns become useful if everyone is filing into a narrow landing area IMO.

You are right about the more narrow landing areas but I think that applies to big ones too. First of all people seem to have a hard time staying on their side. Second is that most people want to land on the side closer to the hanger anyway. Also the middle of the landing area becomes a danger zone as there are converging patterns.
Its better than no rules but why not just set standard pattern so everyone is on the same page?

[kallend 1,623]

If chaos reigns, just land away from the packing area and walk back. The loonies generally try to land close.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[justme12001 0]

I jump mainly at two dz's, one is a larger (twin otter) dz and the other is a cessna dz. The larger one has a set landing pattern and the small one doesn't. I completely understand having a set pattern when there a bunch of people in the air, however at a small cessna dz when there is never more than four people are in the air it's not as important.

Now let the yelling begin

[JamMasterJay 0]

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I jump mainly at two dz's, one is a larger (twin otter) dz and the other is a cessna dz. The larger one has a set landing pattern and the small one doesn't. I completely understand having a set pattern when there a bunch of people in the air, however at a small cessna dz when there is never more than four people are in the air it's not as important.

Now let the yelling begin

I HEAR THAT SHIT!!!! (note the caps...i was yelling)

Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy.

[pms07 3]

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I jump mainly at two dz's, one is a larger (twin otter) dz and the other is a cessna dz. The larger one has a set landing pattern and the small one doesn't. I completely understand having a set pattern when there a bunch of people in the air, however at a small cessna dz when there is never more than four people are in the air it's not as important.

Now let the yelling begin

No need for yelling but a question; have you ever seen a canopy collision in the pattern at a small cessna DZ? I have, multiple times. Lots of near collisions as well.

Having no set landing pattern or policy to deconflict traffic is a recipe for disaster at any DZ...unless there is only one canopy in the air at a time...

[craigbey 0]

No yelling needed, but an observation...

Some of the people who learn or jump at small DZ's that don't enforce conventional landing patterns get in trouble when they travel to larger DZ's or boogies. It can be tough to get the feel for flying a standard pattern in traffic at a new DZ or boogie when you don't practice flying a pattern at your home DZ.

I LOVE going between Skydive Chicago, Chicagoland Skydiving and the Skydive Iowa Swoop Park (TM). For several years, my partner and I have been very fortunate to split our time and hit these 3 great DZ's during the midwest jump season.

As you can imagine, the canopy traffic is significantly less at Skydive Iowa. That is also a small Cessna DZ. But when I'm there, I still do everything I can to fly a predictable, conventional landing pattern. It also helps me setup and *try* to swoop.







(TM) OK ... it's obviously not a swoop park, but it's a wonderful place to practice.

[rhanold 0]

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Any way, I know some DZ's set a landing direction but no pattern if the landing area is on the larger side. The thought being there is more room in the pattern as long as you stay on your side of the landing area.

Landing patterns become useful if everyone is filing into a narrow landing area IMO.

You are right about the more narrow landing areas but I think that applies to big ones too. First of all people seem to have a hard time staying on their side. Second is that most people want to land on the side closer to the hanger anyway. Also the middle of the landing area becomes a danger zone as there are converging patterns.
Its better than no rules but why not just set standard pattern so everyone is on the same page?

I see the disadvantage of having duel patters however I believe these are overshadowed by the advantages.

Having duel patterns decongests the downwind and base legs allowing for the potential of more space between canopies and easier overtaking. It also reduces the occurrence of people joining the pattern at odd angles (where you would not expect them to be) due to the addition of an entry point. It also eliminates the need for flying across (or through) the pattern to join it if someone is coming back from a long spot.

The pros to an enforced single pattern is the reduction of head to head paths at the intersection of the base and final legs. I believe this advantage to be minimal considering the stated advantages of the duel pattern.

Again, this is just my opinion and I am assuming open field predetermined enforced landing direction and separation of High performance and standard patterns.

[ddettloff17 0]

Ya that is larry in the picture. Thanks, guys for the suggestions, they'll help out nice in the coming boogies this winter.

[fencebuster 7]

Ask an AFFI or TI what pattern is preferred/required at the DZ you are jumping. I-s generally give pretty good gouge. At a new DZ (or an old one for that matter) keep your head on a swivel. I have seen a canopy collision and the aftermath with one of my students. You never want to be in one. Period. Keep your eyes open and fly your canopy like your life depends on it because it does.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[ridestrong 1]

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Having duel patterns decongests the downwind and base legs allowing for the potential of more space between canopies and easier overtaking. It also reduces the occurrence of people joining the pattern at odd angles (where you would not expect them to be) due to the addition of an entry point. It also eliminates the need for flying across (or through) the pattern to join it if someone is coming back from a long spot.

+1

On larger Otter loads for example, it doesn't make much sense to require those who exit first and those who exit last to always be able to easily enter the same landing pattern at the downwind initiation, from start to finish.

But then, I'm still amazed that some find it difficult to simply plan their landing pattern after they are under canopy if it hasn't already been predetermined.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[craigbey 0]

I saw dual patterns work well this summer at QCSC in Geneseo, IL. The combination of additional canopy traffic due to the larger aircraft for the weekend and the layout of the landing area made for a unique situation and a good fit for the dual patterns.

But this is another solution that will not work everywhere. Many DZ's also have areas in or around the DZ that are no-fly zones.