0
danger29

Cypres2 or Vigil

Recommended Posts

>Having an AAD which "feels" the gravity changes near the surface of the
>Earth and not the atmospheric pressure.

The problem is that that varies too. The earth isn't uniform, and heavier areas exhibit greater gravitational attraction. In addition, skydive near mountains (i.e. at Otay) and the gradient changes as well due to the nearby masses that aren't under you (at least at AAD firing altitudes.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Here is the type of stuff I find annoying:

Quote

they must check the altimetry calibration of their Vigil once a year,


Quote

AAD NV/SA recommends that the local atmospheric pressure be checked and compared to the pressure indicated by the Vigil® once a year




Valid point.

To add to it, the distinction is especially important in FAA-land, where part 105 says
Quote

(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device.


(I haven't checked the date of that but it is probably current)

So the question then is, whether the FAA considers a recommendation only a recommendation or a firm instruction.



I agree with those talking about how the 10 hPa thing is about relative altitudes. An altimeter only knows altitude by looking at pressure differences, and having an internal table or formula to tell it what pressure typically equals what altitude. A change of X hPa pressure at sea level is a different altitude change than X hPa starting at 5000'. So one wants the altimeter to at least accurately measure its starting pressure, even if it doesn't actually know one's altitude.

(For wrist altis in skydiving, we just zero on the ground, which introduces small errors compared to zeroing them to sea level, but the difference is small enough it doesn't matter much for our purposes.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Peter,

Quote

So the question then is, whether the FAA considers a recommendation only a recommendation or a firm instruction.



None of us really know; but we all have opinions.

Here is mine & this is based upon 30 + yrs of working for the US federal gov't:

Let's say that some hapless jumper decides that he doesn't have the money for his 4-yr CYPRES check-up. He then goes up & jumps but due to his lack of abilities he ends up landing in the middle of an interstate highway resulting in a massive traffic pile-up with about 25 cars & a couple of big rig trucks all involved & our hapless jumper being injured. Now due to this 'blunder' somehow the FAA gets involved in just what the heck happened & they find out about the lack of maintenance on the AAD. So they decide to fine this poor dufus, oh how about they want to take ~$5000 of his hard-earned funds. Well, as it turns out he is a former federal prosecutor and decides "Horsepucky, I ain't taking this crap.' and he fights it.

IMO when it gets to the upper echelons of the FAA the end result will be that the AAD is not a certificated device and the FAA has no authority over it. They will drop their efforts and the skydiving world will change from that day forward.

So, it just takes the right set of circumstances combined with the right person(s) to get this to all go away IMO.

Hey, you asked the question.:P

JerryBaumchen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i just got the bill for a cypres2 in switzerland/europe;

375$

that's about the double i've expected; i'll keep the shit for anoter year, THEN i'll get a vigil2. for a unit that costs me here around 1800$.. that's WAY too much; i could of given it to a friend to get it serviced in the US, around 200$, then have it brought back. it's manufactured in germany, my neighbouring country.. i feel ripped off to NO end!!!

FUCK the cypres2!

>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Billvon, not an issue if the AAD is calibrated for the DZ local gravity pull just like ordinary AAD's have to be switched on/calibrated at the DZ to zero them. But what about an AAD relying on a radar or GPS ?>:(. BTW I made a jump at Otay Lake (Telegraph Canyon road), very nice place to be.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What I know is that mechanical altimeters doesn't have necessarily a linear "curve" of what is indicated with respect to the pressure. When they calibrate your mechanical altimeter in a pressure chamber (ie. Alti 2), they compare its reading with a master altimeter at 0, 3000, 6000, 9000 and 12000 feet generally. The altimeters can agree at 5000 feet and yours can indicate 12500 while the master altimeter shows 13000 feet.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Well Billvon, not an issue if the AAD is calibrated for the DZ local gravity pull just like ordinary AAD's have to be switched on/calibrated at the DZ to zero them. But what about an AAD relying on a radar or GPS ?>:(. BTW I made a jump at Otay Lake (Telegraph Canyon road), very nice place to be.



Actually, gotta go with billvon on this one.

Down isn't really down when you have massive mountains nearby.

I recall a Discovery Channel (or maybe it was a PBS) program about determining the height of Mount Everest.

It mentioned that early surveys had inaccuracies that were not understood at the time.

Basically, surveyors use triangles and trig to determine distances and elevations.

They need a vertical reference for all the angles used to determine elevation.

Mostly they use plumb bobs for that reference.

But plumb bobs don't point exactly down when there are mountains nearby. They will be drawn ever so slightly off the vertical due to the gravity associated with the mass that is off to the side.

So, good call bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

i just got the bill for a cypres2 in switzerland/europe;

375$

that's about the double i've expected; i'll keep the shit for anoter year, THEN i'll get a vigil2. for a unit that costs me here around 1800$.. that's WAY too much; i could of given it to a friend to get it serviced in the US, around 200$, then have it brought back. it's manufactured in germany, my neighbouring country.. i feel ripped off to NO end!!!

FUCK the cypres2!

>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(



Something went wrong here. The Cypres 2 Service costs 160 Euros fixed price, plus a small surcharge for shipping and handling through your dealer. If someone ripped you off it was your dealer and not Airtec. Please let me or Airtec know who this dealer was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When I made my decision on which to buy it was based on history. At the time the Vigil was having alot of bad press. Lots of folks kept saying it's ok no big deal that they kept going off in planes blah blah blah..One thing I wasn't seeing was Cypress having the same problems.

Made it an easy decision. Cypress2 in both my rigs.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

i just got the bill for a cypres2 in switzerland/europe;

375$

that's about the double i've expected; i'll keep the shit for anoter year, THEN i'll get a vigil2. for a unit that costs me here around 1800$.. that's WAY too much; i could of given it to a friend to get it serviced in the US, around 200$, then have it brought back. it's manufactured in germany, my neighbouring country.. i feel ripped off to NO end!!!

FUCK the cypres2!

>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(>:(



Something went wrong here. The Cypres 2 Service costs 160 Euros fixed price, plus a small surcharge for shipping and handling through your dealer. If someone ripped you off it was your dealer and not Airtec. Please let me or Airtec know who this dealer was.


you got PM('s)

so does my rigger AND airtec; i hope to get this resolved rather quickly.. :S
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Well Billvon, not an issue if the AAD is calibrated for the DZ local gravity
>pull just like ordinary AAD's have to be switched on/calibrated at the DZ to
>zero them.

Right, but that's because once you zero out a barometric AAD you know that the pressure will always decline at a predictable rate as you climb (and increase at a predictable rate as you descend.) That's not true with gravitational force when there are large masses nearby. To be accurate you'd have to make a calibration jump at each location from altitude, staying at close to 120mph on each jump, going all the way past activation altitude to calibrate out the errors. There are some practical problems with that approach.

And then if you had a bad spot, all bets would be off.

>But what about an AAD relying on a radar or GPS?

Sure, that would work as well. GPS would only work while the antenna faced the sky, so it would have to shut down if you got hit hard and knocked into a sit (for example.)

Radar has some of the same issues but can be made much more omnidirectional. If you came within X feet of a good radar reflector at freefall speeds it would fire. It would work as long as you weren't doing video above a bigway I suppose. (Or if you went low; if you're going for an omnidirectional sensor it won't be able to tell up from down.)

>Mad. BTW I made a jump at Otay Lake (Telegraph Canyon road), very
>nice place to be.

It is indeed. Very pretty this time of year with the green mountains and the (full) lake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But it would be nice to have an AAD which knows something more then just your height (en therefore speed), wouldn't it? Guess what... there is...
The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

i just got the bill for a cypres2 in switzerland/europe;
375$

if it's just the revision yes you got screwed, without vaseline...
If it's for revision, installation, reserve installation and packjob, it's not THAT bad.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
so, i've had a long talk with a representative from airtec over the phone today; what he told me, and from what i inquired, the rigger in question ripped me a new one for about 100$. this is not airtecs fault. i think they're doing the best to their possibilites..

i like my cypres2; i think it's the best and most well-thought out AAD that there is.

choose your riggers wisely, and shop around for prices.. it might save you a buck or two - or 100$!
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We just had the same discusison the other day. There is a rigger in my area that charges around 200 EUR for cypress 4yrs check, and then there's this other much less vocal rigger who will do it for 150 EUR IIRC.

Someone charging 50 EUR to pack and ship a package should be hanged by the balls... Twice for 100 USD :ph34r:

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I just bougt a new rig (wings container, saffire 2 and smart reserve) with a vigil 2. I have never used a Vigil before always a cypres, but I liked the price, I liked the features (free fall speed, jump log etc) not to mention no MANDITORY (but voluntary) maintence. I am however a little worried as I hear that dragging your rig on the ground can cause a deployment, slamming your trunk etc... Im not to worried about these because I will just turn it off when Im done jumping and make sure I don't drag my rig. I am however worried about pre-mature deployment (cutting of the reserve loop) while in freefall, what if I'm doing a head down, or something that will cause me to break my neck if a reserve deploys. I hear vigils have been known to do that. Is this true, can anyone shead any light on this and if so has the problem been fixed? what has been done to fix this. I was tempted to call and cancel my order and instead get a cypres 2. Can someone calm my worries?
-Eddie B (feel free to message)
www.facebook.com/eddie.d.bryant

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I just bougt a new rig (wings container, saffire 2 and smart reserve) with a vigil 2. I have never used a Vigil before always a cypres, but I liked the price, I liked the features (free fall speed, jump log etc) not to mention no MANDITORY (but voluntary) maintence. I am however a little worried as I hear that dragging your rig on the ground can cause a deployment, slamming your trunk etc... Im not to worried about these because I will just turn it off when Im done jumping and make sure I don't drag my rig. I am however worried about pre-mature deployment (cutting of the reserve loop) while in freefall, what if I'm doing a head down, or something that will cause me to break my neck if a reserve deploys. I hear vigils have been known to do that. Is this true, can anyone shead any light on this and if so has the problem been fixed? what has been done to fix this. I was tempted to call and cancel my order and instead get a cypres 2. Can someone calm my worries?



This specific incident happened with a cypres 2 (opening at 9000 ft)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

This specific incident happened with a cypres 2 (opening at 9000 ft)

are you talking about the one that wouldn't turn on and was jumped anyways ? [:/]

for the above poster, no need to panick. All electronic devices have their particularities, functions AND malfunctions.

read the manual, understand it, and use your device accordingly. If you don't understand something, ask for explanation. If someone tells you "It's the same than the other", ask somewhere else.

if you want to be SURE that your AAD will not malfunction, don't get one.

enjoy your new Wings, your Safire, enjoy having your Smart and your AAD (but try not to use them too often:D)
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0