Cypres2 or Vigil

[Harmless 0]

That would a minimum of 5 years or 2000 jumps. The max is 10 years.

"Damn you Gravity, you win again"

[piisfish 135]

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Note on the Vigil II : right now the Vigil II has the best energy saving design with its new batteries. Those are good for 5 years (very conservative) or 2000 jumps. And don't worry, the display will tell you when the batteries are weak and have to be changed.

and how many new cutters in that lapse of time ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[pilotdave 0]

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When you pressurize an airplane, you increase the pressure in the cabin. What that "tells" to the AAD ? It tells that the pressure increases which is equivalent to a descent or going down. When the descent (or increase of pressure equivalent) reach 150 feet (not a big pressure difference) the Vigil is armed. Now if the rate of change of pressure (change of pressure/time which is equivalent to change of vertical distance/time or speed) is such that it matches 78 MPH or more, the Vigil fires as it is designed to do so.

I understand why it happens. But it SHOULDN'T ever happen. The vigil was missing some smarts to check the validity of the air pressure data that it was using to calculate speed and altitude. It should not see a 150 foot climb during the pressurization. That would look like a rapid descent. If just variations in air pressure on board an aircraft are enough to arm it, the arming conditions they chose are no good. No reason to arm below an altitude at which anybody in their right mind would exit an aircraft in the first place.

I don't know how fast cabin altitude changes when an airliner pressurizes. Maybe that number is within the realm of possibility of a skydiver in freefall. But the device should be smart enough to see that the skydiver accelerated at an impossible rate with no climb before descending.

AAD manufacturers don't publish the algorithms they use to make their decisions, which are based on pressures and rates of change of pressures. They publish firing parameters converted to altitude and descent rate. To say an AAD worked properly when it fired on the ground is just not correct. When an AAD detects impossible conditions, it should put itself to sleep because something is wrong. Either the skydiver encountered conditions the device was not designed for, or it is experiencing an internal malfunction. That's what scares me about the Vigil... I think it's missing that set of safety checks.

Dave

[klingeme 0]

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Damn straight.
I just cant believe i have gone four years doing my best to only sell cypres units in rigs. Then a month ago i gave in and thought, ok, i will sell you a Vigil 2 to one of my sub dealers. Now i get an email saying it is faulty and needs to be exchanged.

First damn one.

Cypres are excellent. I have had so much support from Regina and the crew at Cypres starting as a direct dealer and am well impressed with how fat their units arrive and the service that is provided.

I really love UPT products and i know they stand behind Vigil 2 and I would love to out of loyalty but i just cant.
Too many problems with the first one after everyone started buying it, now it seems the second one also has it's share. My tv does not go 20 years without a service either.

I have sold hundreds of cypres units over the years and never had a single complaint. Thats the sort of product i could continue selling to my customers for years to come.

Gary,
This is the first I'm hearing about this. We can sort this out, but I need to know there is a problem before I can offer a solution.

Drop me an email (with a subject),

Mark Klingelhoefer
United Parachute Technologies

[Decodiver 0]

I have a Vigil II in one of my rigs and a Cypres 2 in the other.

I am married with 2 daughters, 1 aged nearly 5 and the other just over 1.

I really couldn't argue for one or the other after research. I bought a Cypres and then later got a good deal on a Vigil. I believe both will do what they are designed to do, ie cut the loop, when the time comes.

Just my personal thoughts that are worth jack-shit, but can give you an idea of the personal real-estate I have behind my decision and yes I love all 3 of the women in my life, 4 counting my mother and clearly the mother-in-law doesn't count

Cheers,

Coops.

[bigway 4]

You guys have sorted it out.
This is not a bitch post at UPT. It is me being a skydiver that is a cypres fan. Nothing professional.

You guys and vigil resolved the problem instantly and i am happy for that, it means my customer can now buy a cypres.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[klingeme 0]

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You guys have sorted it out.
This is not a bitch post at UPT. It is me being a skydiver that is a cypres fan. Nothing professional.

You guys and vigil resolved the problem instantly and i am happy for that, it means my customer can now buy a cypres.

No problem with that, just making sure you got taken care of.



Mark

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks for the precision. I knew it but with the figures I mentioned, Vigil is quite conservative.

Now for PIISFISH, the Vigil cutters type III are made in USA, more exactely in Wisconsin by a manufacturer specialized in caps and explosive devices for the US Army for many years. They are made of very hard stainless steel and required special machinery to make them. OK Vigil has had few issues with cutters because of one previous cutter manufacturer stopped making the cutters with the required quality. A lot of bad politics from France did the rest. Vigil now has a solid cutter manufacturer. Anybody can be hit by a substandard product made by a sub contractor. Look at the Cypres and their pressure sensor 2 years ago, look at Toyota right now with the accelerator pedal. Vigil will exchange for free any type II cutter and will exchange for 50 Euros any type I cutter (the one with a plastic sleeve to protect the closing loop).

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

I don't know why the Vigil arms itself even at -150 feet. Maybe they thought about the countries with mountains when after take off the landing site is way lower than the runway ????

For what happened in the DC9, it was a pilot mistake since when you have pressure sensitive devices in the cabin, you don't pressurize or you do it carefully (slowly). The pilot just had to keep a door (the one at the rear on the DC9 cabin side since the outside door was removed) slightly open.
Anyway due to this mistake, Perris Valley DC9 owners 1) gave us back our ticket 2) give us an extra 99$ value ticket for free 3) gave us 70$ for the reserve repack 4) paid for the cutter replacement. When my Vigil fired, I wasn't happy because I was going to miss my jump from the DC9 but after half an hour and the extra free ticket, I was all smile. I managed anyway to do 5 jumps that day...not bad at all. It was the 23rd of July 2006. Finally I did 2 DC9 jumps for the price of one. And my Vigil firing never put my life in danger.
On the other hand, when having an AAD which arms itself after 1500 ft like the Cypres (I mentioned 1700 ft, my mistake) if you bailout at 1400 ft and get knocked out at the door, your AAD will not protect you.
Now we are dealing here with the chances of being in an airplane on the ground which get pressurized by mistake and the chances to bailout and being unconscious below the altitude where the AAD arms itself. In the first scenario I am till alive.

Manufacturers have choices to do. They should choose the least dangerous set up and according me this is what Vigil did. Out of the 2 scenarios I really prefer to have my Vigil firing in the airplane on the ground and be alive. Vigil prefers to have their devices ready to fire as soon as possible after take off and I find this approach more cautious.

Solution to this: Having an AAD which "feels" the gravity changes near the surface of the Earth and not the atmospheric pressure. ie. At the top of a mountain the gravity pull is very slightly less than what it is in the valley, more you go up more the gravity pull decreases but at a very slightly rate (at the altitude where the space shuttle goes, the gravity pull is about 80-85% of what it is a sea level). If a manufacturer can make such a device which will transfer the gravity pull into altitude, accurately... I will be the first to buy it if the price is affordable. I invite the physicists and engineers to comments on that.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[pilotdave 0]

Or they could just design a device that validates its calculations and doesn't fire when data indicates an impossible scenario like a rapid descent that was not preceded by a climb. Not sure how many people have died from getting knocked out on low bailouts. Guessing none. But a few have died due to AAD fires in aircraft. You are right that a lower arming altitude has advantages. But clearly it has disadvantages too.

When an AAD fails to fire due to its published activation parameters not being met, the skydiver dies. It failed to save. On the other hand, when an AAD misfires due to parameters not published being met, it may kill a skydiver (or plane load of people). I'd always prefer an AAD to fail by doing nothing when it should have instead of failing by doing something when it shouldn't have. I don't think you and I agree on that.

Dave

[BrianM 1]

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Or they could just design a device that validates its calculations and doesn't fire when data indicates an impossible scenario like a rapid descent that was not preceded by a climb.

... or an impossible scenario like a downward acceleration greater than 9.8 m/s^2. The scenario of the cabin being pressurized on the ground is really quite easy to detect and ignore. It is this sort of scenario that makes me feel that the Vigil is little more than a FXC 12000 with improved precision and some bells and whistles added on. The real advantage of a digital AAD vs a mechanical analog device is the ability to implement algorithms to validate the data and do a better job of making the fire/no-fire decision. Seems a shame to build a digital AAD that doesn't do that.

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I'd always prefer an AAD to fail by doing nothing when it should have instead of failing by doing something when it shouldn't have.

I strongly agree.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Skydivesg 6]

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But a few have died due to AAD fires in aircraft. Dave

Would you mind citing these incidents? I can't recall of any.

Thanks

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[LouDiamond 1]

One of the features most people never use but proved to be useful to me was the ability of the Vigil to offset a substantial amount of altitude, in this case -6000 ft. I flew from Bogota Colombia to the DZ in Flandes Colombia and was able to offset my Vigil so that the first jump in (the fly in) I had an active AAD. All the others who had a Cypres typically make their first jump in to the DZ without an AAD because the Cypres is unable to offset the 6000 ft altitude difference between Bogota and the DZ.

Might not be a feature many use, if at all, but seeing how a majority of the people out there haven't even read the owners manual for their AAD, I'm willing to bet most don't even know the altitude offset limitation of their AAD.

I have seen every AAD out there at one time or another behave in an unacceptable manner, to include the Military ones most here have never used, be it due to user or mechanical/electrical errors. There isn't an AAD out there that is 100% infallible. However, all of the possible AADs that are available for purchase offer a level of protection and reliability that was unheard of not long ago. We would be better off debating whether or not we have a greater chance of being struck by a meteorite or abducted by aliens than constantly arguing over which AAD is better.


Heres something fruitful for everyone to do this next weekend. Randomly ask people to explain how their AAD works, what speeds and altitudes are critical and if they've even read the owners manual. I think you will be surprised that a majority cannot answer the questions correctly or have no idea what so ever. If people don't even know how an item that is supposed to save their life works, how do you think they came to the decision to buy that specific make of AAD? The complacency boggles the mind.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Skybear 0]

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If people don't even know how an item that is supposed to save their life works, how do you think they came to the decision to buy that specific make of AAD? The complacency boggles the mind.

Very good statement, thank you. That is why I always prefer the "switch it on and forget it"-Cypres. How many people have read the manual and know that they must check the altimetry calibration of their Vigil once a year, using a certified barometer for that? Guess none. What's even harder: Vigil allows an offset of 10 hPa which equals 300ft altitude difference. That means it may fire in 450 feet instead of 750 feet. If you are not comfortable with that, or the difference is greater, you have to sent it back to the factory for recalibration at your own expense. So the cost advantage is getting a little smaller. We are not all electronics engineers, but maybe some of us have them as friends and can ask them about their opinions about the lifetime and longterm-accuracy of electronic sensor components.

During days with rapid pressure changes, i.e. thunderstorms in the vicinity of the aerodrome, you must switch it off and on again to make sure the altitude calculation is correct.

If you use rental gear, or after switiching AADs between rigs, you must check the mode, otherwise what happened to a friend of mine might happen to you. His Vigil fired at 2500 feet on a camera jump. It was still in Tandem mode after switching it from a tandem rig. By the way, mode changes are possible with Cypres too. Airtec does it for free at the factory.

I don't say the Vigil 2 is bad at all, but it, needs a lot of attention from the user, what the Cypres 2 does not.

[LouDiamond 1]

Changed modes stories. I love these tales. Yes the Vigil can be switched between 3 different modes. However, it cannot happen inadvertently, meaning the USER has to physically manipulate the device through a series of screens to change to another mode. It doesn't happen by accident. If your friend couldn't even take the time to read the giant words TANDEM on the display screen it is his own fault, human error.

The Vigil needs no more attention than a Cypres, it just has more options available. I have used both Vigil and Cypres AADs over the years and they both require the same amount of my attention when I turn them on and wait for them to cycle through their screens to either PRO or 0. No electrical engineering degree needed to do that.


Arguing over which AAD is better/worse is like arguing over which car is better, Chevy or Ford.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Skybear 0]

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The Vigil needs no more attention than a Cypres...they both require the same amount of my attention when I turn them on and wait for them to cycle through their screens to either PRO or 0.

But now you are only focussing on the modes. Hope you let someone qualified check the altitude calibration regularly (see page 35 of manual).

[BrianM 1]

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No electrical engineering degree needed to do that.

I have an electrical engineering degree, and they didn't teach me anything that would be useful to operate any AAD (or any other device). Now if wanted to design an AAD or some other device...

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Arguing over which AAD is better/worse is like arguing over which car is better, Chevy or Ford.

The best choice between Chevy or Ford is, of course, Chrysler! That is strangely enough apropos - I'm in the process of buying a couple AADs (never owned one before in 14 years of jumping), and opted for neither the Vigil nor the CYPRES, but the Argus. And I drive a Dodge.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[BrianM 1]

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But now you are only focussing on the modes.

Sounded to me like he was making a general statement.

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Hope you let someone qualified check the altitude calibration regularly (see page 35 of manual).

Interesting. I hadn't seen that before. The page you are referring to is the warranty, and doesn't actually contain recommend checking the calibration, just says that if it is off to send it in.

So I looked through the manual for other references to this, and found:

Page 27 says to check the calibration after cleaning and drying the filter when it has been in contact with salt water.

Page 29 says to check it after replacing the battery.

Now I'm wondering if, as a rigger, I should have a barometer in my rigging kit?

Interesting that this is in only in the Vigil II manual, not the Vigil I manual.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Skybear 0]

Sorry, I mixed this up. Please look at page 12. It explicitly says: "AAD NV/SA recommends that the local atmospheric pressure be checked and compared to the pressure indicated by the Vigil® once a year, if more than 10 mbar difference is noticed, then a new calibration should be performed by a Vigil® qualified expert."

I really wonder how many Vigil users read this and comply with it.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Scott,

Disclaimer: I no longer jump so I do not have a dog in this fight.

That is probably the most intelligent post on this whole 'bestest AAD' thing I have ever read.

Hi skybear,

Here is the type of stuff I find annoying:

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they must check the altimetry calibration of their Vigil once a year,

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AAD NV/SA recommends that the local atmospheric pressure be checked and compared to the pressure indicated by the Vigil® once a year

So what is it: must or recommends?

JerryBaumchen

PS) As I have posted in the past: I have owned ASTRA - CYPRES - Vigil I have found all three to be good devices IMO.

[Skybear 0]

Hi Jerry,

thanks for mentioning, I did not really realize that. However, such a recommendation about what is sold as a life-saving-device lets room for philosophical questions. But I don't want to go into this.

Blue skies
Sebastian

[strop45 0]

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What's even harder: Vigil allows an offset of 10 hPa which equals 300ft altitude difference. That means it may fire in 450 feet instead of 750 feet.

I don't think this is a correct interpretation. Standard atmosphere pressure is 1013 hPa. Since the Vigil (and other AADs) calibrate themselves when turned on, a 10 hPa error in calibration will only make approximately a 1% difference in level as the AAD is looking for a pressure relative to the pressure at turn on.

So while a 10hpa error in absolute pressure reading is of concern, since it indicates something astray in the unit, it does not indicate that it will fire 300 ft away from it's design altitude.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[Skybear 0]

Well, 10hPa equals 300feet at MSL. The pressure does not decrease at the same rate with rising altitude. That 's plain physics and is part of the meteorology lessons for skydivers.

[strop45 0]

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Well, 10hPa equals 300feet at MSL. The pressure does not decrease at the same rate with rising altitude. That 's plain physics and is part of the meteorology lessons for skydivers.

Yes, I agree that 10hpa is approximately 300 feet, but that doesn't mean that the AAD will fire at 450 or 1050 feet. It fires at a pressure equal to 750' height above arming altitude. If the unit is 10hpa low, then it reads 1003 hpa at ground level (if the true pressure is 1013) and it fires at a pressure of 1003 less 29hpa, i.e. at very close to 750'.

The key here is that absolute accuracy isn't as important as relative accuracy - think of an inaccurate altimeter - you adjust it to zero on takeoff - at 13000 feet it reads 12500 feet - its much more than 10hpa wrong, but at 750 feet its reads 721 feet, not 250 feet.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[Skybear 0]

Okay, that makes sense. Maybe my pilot education got me into this way of thinking. One last question: On page 12 they recommend to check the calibration, but on page 35 they say if the calibration is off limits the Vigil needs to be checked. Why is this necessary, if the checking is only an option? I don't know how to say it, but somehow it is strange.