Cypres2 or Vigil

[rhys 0]

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Just another little question. Your manual recommends to switch off the unit while riding the plane back down. Did you ever try that while doing a tandem that refused to jump (In some airplanes this means I keep my passenger hooked-up)


a very good question.

i have just read this entire thread because i am in the market for an 'aad'.
i am a commercial s/d photographer and have to land in the plane from time to time because of changing wx conditions. it would be a pain in the ass to turn a unit off for me. and if a tandem had a refusal and were the last in the plane then it would be not only unsafe but illegal to get out of the rig to turn the unit off.

i was sold on vigil until the last post and i'm suprised there has been no response to the question as it was posted in jan and it is now may. was that symposium so good they forgot about this thread?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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[kissrg 0]

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Just another little question. Your manual recommends to switch off the unit while riding the plane back down. Did you ever try that while doing a tandem that refused to jump (In some airplanes this means I keep my passenger hooked-up)


a very good question.

i have just read this entire thread because i am in the market for an 'aad'.
i am a commercial s/d photographer and have to land in the plane from time to time because of changing wx conditions. it would be a pain in the ass to turn a unit off for me. and if a tandem had a refusal and were the last in the plane then it would be not only unsafe but illegal to get out of the rig to turn the unit off.

i was sold on vigil until the last post and i'm suprised there has been no response to the question as it was posted in jan and it is now may. was that symposium so good they forgot about this thread?

It may be a good question but you should turn off both units (Tandem Cypres and Vigil in Tandem mode) if the descent rate exceed the 78 mph.

Robert

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[rhys 0]

this is what i thought might be the case. otherwise it would have been an incredible oversight. so they both have similar activation speeds?

drop pilots are trained for this out our d.z. and i hope all d.z.'s. our plane(cresco 750) can decend faster than a tandem

sweet i still want a vigil now.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[AndyMan 7]

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drop pilots are trained for this out our d.z. and i hope all d.z.'s. our plane(cresco 750) can decend faster than a tandem

They can, but remember the activation altitude of 2000 feet. Pilots are generally thinking about a landing pattern at that point, and have aborted a steep dive long before then.

Somebody correct me, but I believe the Vigil is only really a problem when it's set to student mode, and needs to be turned off. This is comparable to a Student model Cypres.

78 mph is 6,864 feet per minute. I don't know many pilots who are still decending at a rate of 6,864 feet per minute at 2,000 feet.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kelpdiver 2]

I believe the activation speeds are pretty much identical for each mode type. But since the Vigil has all 3 modes and could be set to the wrong one, they wrote the verbiage about turning it off on a fly down.

Unless there is some way the computer can spontaneously change modes, the concern should be the same for both brands.

[EvilLurker 2]

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I don't know many pilots who are still decending at a rate of 6,864 feet per minute at 2,000 feet.

Not many live ones, anyway. It doesn't sound like an actual concern to me, given the parameters quoted. If it did fire, assuming the door was closed, it's pretty harmless (maybe some underwear damage if you got hit by a PC).

[Hooknswoop 19]

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78 mph is 6,864 feet per minute. I don't know many pilots who are still decending at a rate of 6,864 feet per minute at 2,000 feet.

Mullins?

Derek

[sundevil777 93]

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I don't know many pilots who are still decending at a rate of 6,864 feet per minute at 2,000 feet.

Seems so true, but it has happened many times, and it doesn't take a king air or other such high speed plane.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[AndyMan 7]

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Seems so true, but it has happened many times, and it doesn't take a king air or other such high speed plane.

I was responding to a post about tandem mode. Activation in planes has only happened with Student Cypres's, not tandem ones.

This makes sense, since the deployment speed for student Cypreses is 25mph, or 2,200 feet per minute. 2,200 feet per minute is much more likley than 6000 at firing altitude.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[sundevil777 93]

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Seems so true, but it has happened many times, and it doesn't take a king air or other such high speed plane.

I was responding to a post about tandem mode. Activation in planes has only happened with Student Cypres's, not tandem ones.
_Am

Don't be too sure, I haven't witnessed it myself, but from reliable sources...

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[skydiverton 0]

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Just another little question. Your manual recommends to switch off the unit while riding the plane back down. Did you ever try that while doing a tandem that refused to jump (In some airplanes this means I keep my passenger hooked-up)


a very good question.

i have just read this entire thread because i am in the market for an 'aad'.
i am a commercial s/d photographer and have to land in the plane from time to time because of changing wx conditions. it would be a pain in the ass to turn a unit off for me. and if a tandem had a refusal and were the last in the plane then it would be not only unsafe but illegal to get out of the rig to turn the unit off.

i was sold on vigil until the last post and i'm suprised there has been no response to the question as it was posted in jan and it is now may. was that symposium so good they forgot about this thread?

It may be a good question but you should turn off both units (Tandem Cypres and Vigil in Tandem mode) if the descent rate exceed the 78 mph.

Robert

WHY??
One of the manufacturers says it is ok to leave it on while decending. They even made an explicit advertising statement about this subject some years ago.

I do not know why the other manufacturer says switch off in decent mode but they must have a good reason.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

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[kissrg 0]

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Just another little question. Your manual recommends to switch off the unit while riding the plane back down. Did you ever try that while doing a tandem that refused to jump (In some airplanes this means I keep my passenger hooked-up)


a very good question.

i have just read this entire thread because i am in the market for an 'aad'.
i am a commercial s/d photographer and have to land in the plane from time to time because of changing wx conditions. it would be a pain in the ass to turn a unit off for me. and if a tandem had a refusal and were the last in the plane then it would be not only unsafe but illegal to get out of the rig to turn the unit off.

i was sold on vigil until the last post and i'm suprised there has been no response to the question as it was posted in jan and it is now may. was that symposium so good they forgot about this thread?

It may be a good question but you should turn off both units (Tandem Cypres and Vigil in Tandem mode) if the descent rate exceed the 78 mph.

Robert

WHY??
One of the manufacturers says it is ok to leave it on while decending. They even made an explicit advertising statement about this subject some years ago.

I do not know why the other manufacturer says switch off in decent mode but they must have a good reason.

WHY? Because otherwise your reserve will be opened at about 2000 ft according to both AAD's manual.

Anyway there is a better idea from Vigil manual (http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/Eng.pdf):
"When the user decides to ride down with the aircraft in lieu of jumping, the pilot must be advised of the status of your Vigil to limit his descent rate in function of the programmed mode 45mph (20m/sec) for Student and 78mph (35m/sec) for Pro and Tandem (this is especially important for Vigils programmed in Student mode)."

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[bigway 4]

First vigil i ever sell and it is getting sent back due to a fault.
Cypres 2 peeps!

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[377 20]

I'd go with the Cypres 2.

I am an electrical engineer with experience in "mission critical" electronics (implantable heart defibrillators). I chatted at length with some of the SSK and Airtec Cypres tech guys. They REALLY have their act together and have already gone through most of the teething pains that new AAD mfrs have and will experience around RFI (radio frequency interference), presure transients, component aging (capacitors change value over time) etc.

I am not saying Vigils are inferior. They may be as good or better than a Cypres 2, but the Cypres 2 has decades of AAD experience behind it. In an AAD I'd rather have tried and true than shiny and new.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[bigway 4]

Damn straight.
I just cant believe i have gone four years doing my best to only sell cypres units in rigs. Then a month ago i gave in and thought, ok, i will sell you a Vigil 2 to one of my sub dealers. Now i get an email saying it is faulty and needs to be exchanged.

First damn one.

Cypres are excellent. I have had so much support from Regina and the crew at Cypres starting as a direct dealer and am well impressed with how fat their units arrive and the service that is provided.

I really love UPT products and i know they stand behind Vigil 2 and I would love to out of loyalty but i just cant.
Too many problems with the first one after everyone started buying it, now it seems the second one also has it's share. My tv does not go 20 years without a service either.

I have sold hundreds of cypres units over the years and never had a single complaint. Thats the sort of product i could continue selling to my customers for years to come.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[koppel 3]

should have bought an argus mate

I like my canopy...


...it lets me down.

[bigway 4]

I only buy Cypres.
Argus ha not approached me to ell their AAD o wouldnt even know what one looks like.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[wdriessens 0]

Should you be intersted, here is the website : www.argus-aad.com

[bigway 4]

Appreciate it but I really love the service cypres in Germany give to me.
Last week I ordered six units and they were on my door within 72hours.
When I opened my store I got a massive box full of mugs and keyrings and patches,posters etc.
Seriously, the group in Germany are just really pleasent to deal with.

I think if a customer wanted a argus then I would approach argus and try them out. I have only heard good things about them but it's just hard to voluntary try a different product when service is so good.

The old saying don't fix what's not broken I guess

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[chutingstar 1]

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I only buy Cypres.
Argus ha not approached me to ell their AAD o wouldnt even know what one looks like.

You've now been approached by Argus: Wdriessens works for the company.

And you now know what they look like if you went to the web site.

So at least you've got that covered now...CypresKrew.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[bigway 4]

Nice of him to introduce himself

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[erdnarob 1]

A lot of subjectivity in most of the posts. What you need is first to read the manufacturer's presentation on his products (go at Advanced Aerospace Designs (Vigil) website, go at Airtec and at Argus and read the specifications. And after that ask to a person who knows well the history of those AAD's.

Now, you have to know that AAD's are tricky to built since all manufacturers deal with electronic components they are are not making themselves. FYI about electronic components:

1) Argus uses TEXAS Instruments

2) Vigil uses Texas Instruments

3) Cypres uses Motorola

They are all good and the pressure sensor is probably made by the same manufacturer for the 3 of them.

Now what makes the difference: It is: The maintenance conditions, the structural strength, the strength of the cables, the design of the software, the design of the control box, the design of the cutter the design of the display console.

Considering all those aspects I can say that I prefer the Vigil II since it offers the following features:
1) Kevlar reinforced cable (100 lbs +)
2) a sturdy molded aluminum electronics box
3) an ergonomic electronics box flat and slightly curved to harmonize with the reserve volume (rigger friendly)
4) Availability of 3 modes which makes it easy for gear management in a DZ or easier to sell (can be changed easily for tandem or student)
5) at the switch on, tell you clearly what the device is checking (CUT OK, BTT OK, CTRL OK)
6) when the device is switched on the mode stays on the display all the time
7) No scheduled maintenance (it takes 3 days to get your device after the manufacturer received it) and you decide when to have a maintenance.
8) if something is wrong the device switches off
9) Display giving you all info on your last jump and possibility to download the data of the last 16 minutes or 16 jumps provide you have the interface and disk

Well this is what I like with the Vigil II. My Vigil 1 was fired 2 times when it had to do it. 1rst time at Perris Valley (#17 on Vigil savings or low pull) and in the DC9 at Rantoul when the pilot mistakenly pressurized the airplane). Not too many people can say that.

Now, you have to know that all AAD's manufacturers have had their share of problems which has been proportional to the number of units in the field. The main problem is that the AAD's manufacturers can check the component quality but they cannot check their durability. If some people answering your thread think Cypres has solved everything then check the attachment on my post.

At least now you have a more solid ground to decide what to buy. Have fun and be careful

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Skybear 0]

Regarding to your attachment: Yep, that can happen to any AAD. The point with scheduled maintenance is, that many flaws are discovered and dealt with, even before an unwanted activation takes place. If you ask Airtec they will tell you that they fixed some serial errors over the years that were detected during maintenance. Some units were called back to the factory immediately, some minor problems were solved at the normal inspection. With a Vigil you will ALWAYS detect the error when it fires when it is not supposed to, or when it does not fire when it has to.

The nature of the question might look philosophical, but if you are unconscious in freefall how many % do you want to be sure that your AAD will work?

Each of the 135.000 Cypres build until today fired when it had to. The Vigils also did, but it is kind of a long-time-test which is running.

[pilotdave 0]

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My Vigil 1 was fired 2 times when it had to do it. ... in the DC9 at Rantoul when the pilot mistakenly pressurized the airplane).

This is a good thing?? The vigil 1 manual says it fires at 840 feet when you're falling faster than 78 mph. Unless the DC-9 was descending through 840 feet with a vertical speed of 78 mph, your vigil should not have fired.

In my opinion, the worst thing an AAD can possibly do is fire when it's not supposed to. The cypreses acted correctly, realized pressure readings didn't make sense, and shut down.

Dave

[erdnarob 1]

That has been explained in several posts already but for you I will do it again.

When you pressurize an airplane, you increase the pressure in the cabin. What that "tells" to the AAD ? It tells that the pressure increases which is equivalent to a descent or going down. When the descent (or increase of pressure equivalent) reach 150 feet (not a big pressure difference) the Vigil is armed. Now if the rate of change of pressure (change of pressure/time which is equivalent to change of vertical distance/time or speed) is such that it matches 78 MPH or more, the Vigil fires as it is designed to do so.

It is Vigil's approach to have his device armed (ready for firing) very soon after take off (+ or - 150 feet). While the Argus is armed when reaching 1400 feet, the Cypres is armed at 1700 feet if my memory is OK. In case of bailout at 1500 feet they will not fire if they have to. There is posts on the pro and the con of the different approaches.

Important thing to remember. Altimeter, AAD's, beepers...they all measure the atmospheric pressure of where you are and the display transfers that to vertical distance or altitude and speed by using the internal clock.

Note on the Vigil II : right now the Vigil II has the best energy saving design with its new batteries. Those are good for 5 years (very conservative) or 2000 jumps. And don't worry, the display will tell you when the batteries are weak and have to be changed.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.