0
Nataly

Sexism revisited...

Recommended Posts

I know, I know... This topic irks a lot of people... But so be it - you of course have the option to just stop reading here...

...

I work part-time and the salary is simply not enough - I am therefore looking for either a second part-time job or a new full-time one... Browsing through the job adverts, I keep seeing something that really, really angers me... In French, each word is either feminin or masculin. Some words take on the gender of the person being described. So an "assistant" can be "une assistante" or "un assistant"... An "accountant" can be "un comptable" or "une comptable"... A "director" can be "un directeur" or "une directrice"... Essentially, any role can be "un" or "une"... And EVERY SINGLE freakin' advert for PA's / Assistants / Secretaries is feminine... ARRRRRGH. The neutral way to publish an ad is simply to write un(e) assistant(e). Just FYI, it is a gramatically acceptable practice to default to the masculin, especially when the word changes dramatically from say "verrat" to "truie" - you may use simply "cochon" (masculin, but technically considered pretty-much neutral).

I'm sorry, but to specifically use the feminin only form for these roles only signals that only women should be doing these jobs. And it drives me nuts. As a woman, recruiters regularly propose PA/Secretary/Office-work to me, despite me being a Chartered Accountant. They would NEVER offer such roles to male Accountants - Chartered or not. I discussed this with a male colleague of mine, and he couldn't agree more - he went further and said "well, no man in their right mind would accept such a role in the first place - it would be insulting." It IS insulting. Not the role itself, but the fact that my skills/qualifications are not recognised in the same way as if I had a penis. It's wrong.

And truthfully, it hurts both genders to have these stereotypical roles they have to live up to. I really believe that men die younger because they have more pressure to be strong and to attain leadership, power and influence. To be responsible for all the finances and to look after 3, 4, 5 other people on one salary, and to keep paying after a divorce, et cetera, et cetera. It's bad for both sides to be forced into these roles - surely we can evolve into something healthier and more balanced for everyone?? I don't think being a woman means I can't handle just as much responsibility as a man. I don't think it makes me any less capable or deserving. WHEN are we going to start looking more at competencies and less at gender???
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I agree. Women get all the job opportunities.

Why are they specifically excluding men from these jobs?



FYI - all the "masculin-only" roles are directors and head of projects or CEO's... No lower-level positions. The gender-neutral ones are everything in the middle... So men get excluded from the lower-level positions and women are excluded from positions of responsibility.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Certainly a cultural thing, and one that's changed dramatically in the past 40 years in our country (although I hear there's still room for improvement). I work for the government. My facility chief, 500+ employees, is a woman. Her asst. chief is a man. No one thinks twice about it. I've had both male and female supervisors. I have no gender preference, just that they be competent (not always the case.:S:|).

In the U.S., gender discrimination is illegal, although proving a subtle case of it may be difficult. Are there similar laws in France?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at it this way. They're signaling that they may be organizations you don't want to work for. :|

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You chose to live in another culture. You knew what they were like, going in. You don't like it? Leave.
Quit your crying. They might call you a little girl.




That's about the dumbest argument I've ever heard... Every place on earth has it's flaws... And you associate highlighting a problem with "crying" and being a "little girl"... Like either of those things is negative (it's not)... Grow up.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There are many EU directives to combat discrimination right back to 1976. It's not socially acceptable in France as it is in any other EU nation state.

As always, though, people take time to adjust and the French do occasionally have a habit of ignoring rules they don't like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As always, though, people take time to adjust and the French do occasionally have a habit of ignoring rules they don't like.



Soooo true!!! :D:D:D
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's actually an interesting topic.

Over long periods of time languages are the most natural expression of who we are. And when I say we I mean different human communities. It's a fingerprint of the feedback loop that shapes civilizations. We are exposed to an external experience that we make sense via a vocabulary used in a certain way that we call grammar, that shows how we work inside.

French language seems to be more of a left brain language (very creative). You can't speak french if you don't know the grammar exceptions. Not to mention that how you write a word and how you read it there are 2 different things.

What makes it more interresting is the ability to learn and think in different languages.
Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, people who never learned language (e.g. iilliterate deaf people before sign language) clearly are capable of thought, so it happens.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Well, people who never learned language (e.g. iilliterate deaf people before sign language) clearly are capable of thought, so it happens.

Wendy P.



I know...and be careful what you wish for, but I want to know how....what is it like? Quite liberating I imagine. Art is the closest I suppose I've came...

I've spent a third of my life going to extreme measures to see things through other people's eyes...How do I forget language without getting plastered on vodka?
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I know...and be careful what you wish for, but I want to know how....what is it like? Quite liberating I imagine. Art is the closest I suppose I've came...



Also, I suppose this type of thought can be expressed through meditation or prayer as well...where we may tend to think through visualizations at times...

Similar to when working out...when I'm doing bench presses and feel as though I can't finish that last rep, I'm not thinking anything...I just visualize myself finishing and wala, it happens.
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There's an artist whose work I saw a couple of years ago; he was a physician who suffered a stroke that took out all of his language processing. He can't talk, write, etc.

Still a smart man.

He now draws and colors in incredible mandalas; makes his living that way. No way at all to know how he thinks, because he can't communicate. It's been about 15 years, so it's unlikely to change. Interesting conumdrum. And I'll bet it's different for him (he did have language at one time) than it is for someone who never had language.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Job advertisements are - as far as I know - required to be gender-neutral in Germany. Most jobs have a masculine and a feminine form and so these adverts usually look a little strange because both forms are attached to each other with a slash. (Like: Sachbearbeiter/in) The new - politically correct - job names ("Sachbearbeiterin" has replaced "Sekretärin") add to the strange feeling, at least to folks who are used to the older names.

If one looks more closely, however, you will find the despite all gender-correctness etc pp the highly-paid jobs still are mainly hogged by males. So names alone will not solve the problem, it's got to do more with the attitude of society as a whole. Politicians here are discussing whether there should be a law requiring companies listed in the German Stock Index (DAX) to have a minimum number of female CEOs and ViceCEOs etc.
The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Job advertisements are - as far as I know - required to be gender-neutral in Germany. Most jobs have a masculine and a feminine form and so these adverts usually look a little strange because both forms are attached to each other with a slash. (Like: Sachbearbeiter/in) The new - politically correct - job names ("Sachbearbeiterin" has replaced "Sekretärin") add to the strange feeling, at least to folks who are used to the older names.

If one looks more closely, however, you will find the despite all gender-correctness etc pp the highly-paid jobs still are mainly hogged by males. So names alone will not solve the problem, it's got to do more with the attitude of society as a whole. Politicians here are discussing whether there should be a law requiring companies listed in the German Stock Index (DAX) to have a minimum number of female CEOs and ViceCEOs etc.



As far as I know, discrimination based on gender is illegal in France as well... The problem will not be solved once they start putting "assistant(e)" on all the job adverts... As you pointed out, that's just salad dressing unless it's backed up by a genuine desire to evolve... I simply find it shocking that it's so openly sexist. People discriminate based on race as well, and I would be just as shocked (and offended) if the adverts called for a black janitor... We have a looooooooong way to go before any semblance of balance is achieved... :|
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0