'A' licensee on STUDENT mode

[erdnarob 1]

One day that I was packing a reserve, I was checking the AAD status and functioning as it is required. I saw that this AAD was set on STUDENT mode. The owner told me that he was told to keep the AAD on this mode probably because he was new at the DZ. He had at the time an A license and about 60-70 jumps total and was jumping a 150 sq.ft parachute in a sport rig.
I would like to know what you instructor, rigger, experienced people think about that request.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Hvance 0]

There is another thread recently which discussed the possibility of firing the student AAD with aggressive turns/etc. From what I read there, it seems that it's not particularly difficult to make a student canopy dive/turn such that it meets firing parameters for some (all?) student AADs. If that is the case, it would certainly hold to a greater extent for a 150 canopy.

If I've understood that correctly, it seems like having a jumper with ~65 jumps use a student AAD introduces more risks than it mitigates. I'm also interested to hear what instructors have to say..

I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option.

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks Hvance, I have seen the thread you mention. But my concern is more about telling a beginner with a A license, 60-70 jumps, jumping a 150 sf canopy to stay on STUDENT mode.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[wildcard451 0]

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Thanks Hvance, I have seen the thread you mention. But my concern is more about telling a beginner with a A license, 60-70 jumps, jumping a 150 sf canopy to stay on STUDENT mode.

I can't see why that would be a good idea. Isn't the whole idea of STUDENT mode to be to handle a catch all, including slow malfunctions that the student, while educated in how to handle them, does not?

An A-license by default says that you are competent to jump alone (and with others), and completed the necessary training to handle malfunctions in due time.

I just can't understand why.

[AndyMan 7]

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But my concern is more about telling a beginner with a A license, 60-70 jumps, jumping a 150 sf canopy to stay on STUDENT mode.

I certainly would not be giving that advice.


Assuming the guy is competent, I guess. This could be some passive aggressive way that the old timers are trying to tell some kid he's not very good.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[D22369 0]

I guess. This could be some passive aggressive way that the old timers are trying to tell some kid he's not very good. ***

hmmm, this could be it, however the staff need to man up and just put their foot down rather than giving this stupid piece of crap order/advice - if he is that overconfident and or incompetent - as this "kid" may not even notice...

its not the dzo's and staffs job to be liked - its their job to teach others to be safe and give them the skills to be able to jump and go home in one piece, sometimes you have to single someone out and just give them both barrels with something like "hey, at your skill level and ability this is no good, you are putting yourself and others at risk and we have to change this"

only thing on the dz I ever took serious was safety, I took a young man very similar to this and handed him a rental rig after watching his "mad skills" and told him to put his in the trunk of his car. he was quite upset but was quickly informed that he would not be allowed to jump his small rocket and that he would not be charged a rental fee for the rig he would use at this dropzone.

he went to our competitor dropzone and shattered himself a few weeks later.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[Gary73 8]

You mention the canopy size, but what's the jumper's wing loading on that canopy?

As long as a jumper limits turns to 180 degrees below 1,500 feet, there shouldn't be any problems with an AAD firing in student mode, assuming a WL of under 1.0 PSF, as recommended for any jumper with under 200 jumps,

Even so, from what I've been able to find out informally, student mode is more trouble than it's worth, even for students. It's incredibly rare to have a legitimate student-mode AAD activation, but not at all rare to have an accidental activation just because a jumper does a 360 turn at 1,000 feet.

So yeah, FWIW I'd vote for normal mode in this case.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[firemedic 7]

Student mode AADs are designed for students under the supervision of an instructor, and until they attain their A license. When you take the supervision out of the equation the potential for the skydiver to create the perameters for activation is greater. Now add in the A license and smaller canopy and the potential is even greater. Being an instructor, IMO, I would advise the jumper to change the setting to PRO.

[Baksteen 84]

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You mention the canopy size, but what's the jumper's wing loading on that canopy?

As long as a jumper limits turns to 180 degrees below 1,500 feet, there shouldn't be any problems with an AAD firing in student mode, assuming a WL of under 1.0 PSF, as recommended for any jumper with under 200 jumps,

Even so, from what I've been able to find out informally, student mode is more trouble than it's worth, even for students. It's incredibly rare to have a legitimate student-mode AAD activation, but not at all rare to have an accidental activation just because a jumper does a 360 turn at 1,000 feet.

So yeah, FWIW I'd vote for normal mode in this case.

Generally speaking, as long as the owner is aware of the AAD's firing parameters and the associated do's and dont's (like Gary stated above) I see no problem with keeping it in Student mode.

However, "DZ staff telling a jumper to keep his AAD in student mode "because the jumper is new to the DZ" makes no sense to me.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[jakee 1,254]

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But my concern is more about telling a beginner with a A license, 60-70 jumps, jumping a 150 sf canopy to stay on STUDENT mode.

I certainly would not be giving that advice.


Assuming the guy is competent, I guess. This could be some passive aggressive way that the old timers are trying to tell some kid he's not very good.

If that were the case, it would be an incredibly poor way of getting the message across. How would 'not being very good' protect him from having a Cypres fire under canopy?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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How would 'not being very good' protect him from having a Cypres fire under canopy?

Yep, I hope they reviewed "2 canopies out" procedures when they make this recommendation to the jumper.


I've seen experienced jumpers fire AAD's on student rigs just by making aggressive front riser turns. Very bad idea in my book to have any licensed jumper on a 150 jumping student mode.

[Unstable 8]

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One day that I was packing a reserve, I was checking the AAD status and functioning as it is required. I saw that this AAD was set on STUDENT mode. The owner told me that he was told to keep the AAD on this mode probably because he was new at the DZ. He had at the time an A license and about 60-70 jumps total and was jumping a 150 sq.ft parachute in a sport rig.
I would like to know what you instructor, rigger, experienced people think about that request.

I would insist that it be set to experienced mode for that canopy and jumper. I have personally repacked reserves for jumpers who have done that exact thing and had a reserve pop-out for doing a hard 180 at about 1300 feet.

=========Shaun ==========

[hackish 8]

I think the only significant value to student mode is the slightly higher firing altitude which should give the student a little more preparation time for landing.

This topic that Andre talks about was covered in the safety day each of the last 2 years. At a small dropzone it would be worthwhile to find out which person dispensed the advice and communicate with them to determine if that was really the advice given or if it was just confusion on the user's part.

-Michael

[Ron 7]

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The owner told me that he was told to keep the AAD on this mode probably because he was new at the DZ.

Makes no sense to me.

But if the jumper knows and understands the function of the AAD, and knows the operating parameters of the Student mode... then he can make that call.

I'd personally sit down and ask him if he knows all of that and that under the canopy he is jumping he might be able to accidentally fire the reserve and that would be... bad.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[popsjumper 2]

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The owner told me that he was told to keep the AAD on this mode probably because he was new at the DZ. He had at the time an A license and about 60-70 jumps total and was jumping a 150 sq.ft parachute in a sport rig.
I would like to know what you instructor, rigger, experienced people think about that request.

I think the owner is one of those many who jumps out of airplanes not knowing what the hell they are doing.

A-license, 60-70 jumps, rig owner????
He/She should KNOW how the equipment works and be able to make intelligent decisions.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks everybody for answering my thread. I posted that thread matter-of-factly to make sure I wouldn't influence anybody.
Personally, I wouldn't tell a "A" license holder to jump using the student mode on his AAD for the following reasons :
1) Being a student means that the jumper makes very particular jumps which require relatively high opening altitude (4000-5000 ft). This is quite different than what a "A" license holder is doing and I would say even quite different than what a solo or self supervised jumper is doing either (Knowing that a solo or self supervised jumper is still on student status)
2) As some people posted it, it's not only a question of altitude firing (200 ft higher) but the firing speed is also way smaller which makes the possibility of an AAD firing even more likely to happen. It was a VIGIL1 AAD where the firing speed on STUDENT mode being 20 m/s = 45 MPH or 43% less than the 35 m/s =78 MPH of the PRO mode, quite a difference.
3) If a manufacturer has chosen those speeds related with those two modes, they should have very good reason to do it and they sure have sought extensive advice from many jumpers and instructors to get those figures and choose them.
Of course, the "A" license holder should know what he is doing including the parameters of those two set ups, but the advice to stay on STUDENT mode was given by an official who seemingly, according the AAD owner, didn't explain the difference between the two modes and what could be the possible consequences of either choices. Being a senior instructor I suggested to this AAD owner to switch right away his AAD on PRO mode to match the type of jumps he was doing. I gave him also the related explanations. He told me later he did choose the PRO mode.
Note1 : As hackish points it out mistakenly, that issue was never discussed in the last two year safety days, it happened I was in charge of those two safety days, for accommodations, topics and the choice of the speakers.
Note 2 : the jumper was jumping a 150 sf canopy including a wing loading of about 1.0 a rough evaluation since the jumper is quite a light guy.
Note 3 : An AAD i a back up device but that kind of device has to be used wisely and it is up to experienced people in charge like qualified, knowledgeable and current instructors to give advice in such a touchy matter.
Note 4 : It is (I believe) current in many DZ to put solo jumper (self supervised ) jumper (still on student status) on PRO or EXPERT mode since they make different jumps than supervised students. Is that makes sense ?

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Ron 7]

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Note 4 : It is (I believe) current in many DZ to put solo jumper (self supervised ) jumper (still on student status) on PRO or EXPERT mode since they make different jumps than supervised students. Is that makes sense ?

IMO, yes. Once there is no longer an Instructor on the dive, I would want the AAD on PRO. A low pull, or some canopy tricks (which a jumper that does not know better might do) might fire the AAD.

Legally, it might be best to keep the AAD on "Student" till the jumper has a license.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks Ron, but has the USPA made it clear about having advanced students (ie. solo or self supervised) on Pro mode ?

Once I was coaching a friend of mine still on student status (34 jumps) in a DZ near Toronto Ontario. When I did her rig inspection I saw that the Vigil was set up on Pro mode. I was a bit annoyed. I then asked the DZO about it. He told me that was OK since she was on solo status for a while. I have no idea if the CSPA regulations have provisions for this issue. I will check. There is still many grey zones here and there in the regulations. But in the meantime common sense is still the best.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Ron 7]

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Thanks Ron, but has the USPA made it clear about having advanced students (ie. solo or self supervised) on Pro mode ?

Not that I am aware of.... SIM section 2-1, K (equipment) states:

d. a functional automatic activation device that meets the manufacturer'srecommended service schedule [FB]

The [FB] requires the full board to waive.

SIM 5-3, G makes no mention.

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I saw that the Vigil was set up on Pro mode.

I know a few DZ's that only use the expert CYPRES. Makes sense to me... The student CYPRES is a good thing, but once they are no longer being supervised I think the PRO model is a good choice.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334