Javelin Vs. Racer

[teason 0]

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Oh and that hybrid comment. What in the world does F-111 have to do with your buddy who wouldn't wear a seat belt

More of just an observation that many people throw out things like "I don't believe in (insert thing here)" and yet they seldom quantify it with a cogent arguement. It drives me nuts. (by the way, JP I did appreciate the last post)

What drives me nuts more is others hear this and repeat it, also having no idea why they have that opinion.

I had someone condesendingly ask me why I would jump a Racer. When I asked what was wrong with Racers, He told me they were shit. When I ask why, he told me they were garbage. When I asked him what made them garbage he told me they were old technology. When I told him about speed bags, the ease of packing, teflon cables, type XIII webbing and the pin protection for IADs, the strongest argument he could come up with to prove his position was that no one likes them. Finally after pressing him further, it turned out his rigger doesn't like them. Monkey see, monkey do.

It is not enough to believe something, you have to know why you believe it.

Right or wrong, Derek has a position that is supported by observation and anecdotal evidence. What is right for him, however, is not right for everyone. I'm sure he'll even tell you that. At least he's not saying he doesn't "believe in Racers" and leaving it at that.

p.s. Senior riggers aren't allowed to make safety stoes to my knowledge. That's why posting that you can just make them isn't a valid argument. Most of us can't. I'll try and find where I read that. If someone (manufacturers?)can help me that would be much appreciated.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[mjosparky 3]

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p.s. Senior riggers aren't allowed to make safety stoes to my knowledge. That's why posting that you can just make them isn't a valid argument. Most of us can't. I'll try and find where I read that. If someone (manufacturers?)can help me that would be much appreciated.

It is part of the reserve deployment system, just like the the P/C, bridle and free bag. I don't think we are allowed to make them either. jmo

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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Monkey see, monkey do.

True.

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It is not enough to believe something, you have to know why you believe it.

True again.

I've got no real beef with the NEW Racer it's self, other than the objection Derek has, and the apperance is not my cup-o-tea.

My experience with them is limited.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Unstable 8]

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I had someone condesendingly ask me why I would jump a Racer. When I asked what was wrong with Racers, He told me they were shit. When I ask why, he told me they were garbage. When I asked him what made them garbage he told me they were old technology. When I told him about speed bags, the ease of packing, teflon cables, type XIII webbing and the pin protection for IADs, the strongest argument he could come up with to prove his position was that no one likes them. Finally after pressing him further, it turned out his rigger doesn't like them. Monkey see, monkey do.

I couldn't have said it better. Your post is appreciated. I have had this exact same discussion, almost word for word, on countless occasions. I like to associate it to trends... Where I come from, Javelin & Wings are Popular, Racers & Infinities are not. IMHO, it's kinda like how people need to have the right jeans in High School.

I think that this is something we are going to see changing here very Shorty. The 2K3 has set aside all arguments against the Racer and then some. I jump my new Racer, and People are seeing the new Racer more & more. Two Years ago at Rantoul, there were maybe 5 People Jumping 2k3's that I knew of. This previous year, Not only were there many More, 5 People that are Regular posters here on DZ.com placed orders for 2K3's. They are getting out there, and people are realizing (some slower than others) what a Great Container they are.

=========Shaun ==========

[diablopilot 2]

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The 2K3 has set aside all arguments against the Racer and then some.

As this thread has proven, it hasn't.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Unstable 8]

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As this thread has proven, it hasn't.

My apologies, my wording was misleading. As far as I can tell from the discussions here, the only valid point (i.e - a point wherein both parties agree upon, or a non-refutable fact) I see is that it is a minor inconvience for a rigger to secure a reserve quick loop, since that component is part of the TSO'd system. Beyond that, this thread has actually PROVEN nothing. I am not a rigger, so I will just sit back and observe the technicle arguments, but I am sharp enough to discern what is opinion & what is fact. Granted, the first point I brought up is in fact an opinion (hell, maybe some Riggers Enjoy calling for more Quick loops...), I use that under the assumption that Mike has somewhat agreed to that point.

Best regards,

This post has been edited for Spelling and one gramatical error. No content has been changed as far as the meanings or intentions of my post.

=========Shaun ==========

[riggerrob 558]

When Jump Shack perfects their molar bag and approves floating Quick loops, they will remove my last two arguments against packing Racers.

Floating Quick loops have worked well in Europe for more than a decade, and they take about 1 minute to replace.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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all I ever hear is negative things about the racer and nothing really positive.anything from how bad they are to repach to the main flap comes open in freefall.the stilitto is a different matter the word is they open hard and they spin up quite often.

Main flap on a 2k3 racer coming open in freefall? You mean just like on any Javelin J1 and larger? I know several people with 2k3's and have never seen one flapping in the air. Do not confuse people's stories of obsolete rigs with what is currently being manufactured.

[riggingplace 0]

***What other rigs besides the Racer or Reflex can the reserve closing loop(s) be tightened without breaking the seal?

any rig on the market today can have their reserve closing loops tightened without breaking the seal and I will not go into how to do this because it is so very dangerous. As far as someone over tightening a quick loop on a racer or reflex goes: if it is something that the rigger has no control over then he cannot be held responsible (this is tried and proven in 1997) when I teach people to be riggers the first rig they pack on their own is a racer with a cypres and a 181-mz reserve (zp top skin) when they are done they ask me what is so hard about packing a racer. If your rigger cannot pack a racer or is reluctant to pack a racer then find your self another rigger. there are riggers that will show your rigger how to pack a racer with ease and if he does not want to take the time to learn then he may not want to take the time to do things that should be done to any rig. Mike and Peter: I do not understand why you have to defend the racer, all anyone has to do is check it's record and it will speak for it self. Any rigger that wishes to learn how to pack a racer and see for them selves just how easy and simple it is then feel free to contact me and I will be happy to teach you.

Mike Gainey
Master Rigger
DPRE

[Hooknswoop 19]

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any rig on the market today can have their reserve closing loops tightened without breaking the seal and I will not go into how to do this because it is so very dangerous.

Someone else brought up this and I figured out the method. 1) This method is detect-able if there is an investigation, i.e. evidence of tampering, and 2) I doubt how effective the method is. I won't say why, since that would give it away.

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As far as someone over tightening a quick loop on a racer or reflex goes: if it is something that the rigger has no control over then he cannot be held responsible (this is tried and proven in 1997)

So then would a rigger that over tightens a pop top be help responsible if the jumper goes in because they can't pull the reserve? Or are you saying that since it is impossible to know who tightened the rig, that no one would be held responsible? What are the specifics of the 1997 case?

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when I teach people to be riggers the first rig they pack on their own is a racer with a cypres and a 181-mz reserve (zp top skin) when they are done they ask me what is so hard about packing a racer.

I have packed Racers and if you don't have to make a new loop (and according to the manufacturer, you cannot make them, you have to buy them), they are not difficult to pack at all. How hard or easy they are to pack is not why I will not pack them.

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If your rigger cannot pack a racer or is reluctant to pack a racer then find your self another rigger.

I agree since otherwise, you won't get your reserve re-packed if you don't find another rigger.

Again, the reason I will not pack Racers is not because I can't or find them difficult. The reason I will not pack Racers is because they can be tightened by someone other than the Rigger that packed it without breaking the seal or leaving any other evidence of tampering. The only rigs that you can tighten the reserve closing loop on without breaking the seal or leaving evidence of tampering are pop top rigs.

To reiterate, it has nothing to do with being lazy, uneducated, inexperienced, etc. IT has to do with the design. Until that design changes, I won't put my seal on them. If another rigger wishes to pack, them, go for it. I won't think any less of them. The mnore riggers that do pack them, the less often I have to say "no" to packing them, which makes me happy.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

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Mike and Peter: I do not understand why you have to defend the racer, all anyone has to do is check it's record and it will speak for it self.

You are right, I was simply educating people so that they are not misled. The fact is that the only issue that was raised was speculation as in 30 years it has never occurred!

[mjosparky 3]

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If your rigger cannot pack a racer or is reluctant to pack a racer then find your self another rigger. there are riggers that will show your rigger how to pack a racer with ease and if he does not want to take the time to learn then he may not want to take the time to do things that should be done to any rig

Thats pretty harsh. Its also a long reach from not being willing to pack a racer to not packing anything right.

I will not pack any rig I am not familiar with, pack on a regular basis. They all have little tweeks and practice make for a better job. If someone bring me a rig that fits that description, I ask if they mind if I pack it 3 or 4 time. It they say no, I tell them no.

No, I do not pack for a living. I can afford to be picky. Would you feel comfortable packing the head box on a F-18A or the recovery system on a 16' 450 pound model rocket? I do.

We are all have different strengths.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The fact is that the only issue that was raised was speculation as in 30 years it has never occurred!

Fact is it has occured. You admitted that yourself. Just no one has needed the reserve when it was in that condition.

For an analogy: I don't use a molar strap. Why? It is possible for it to be left on the reserve and I don't need it. Has anyone ever gone in because there was a molar strap left on the reserve? Not to my knowledge. But they have been left on reserves before. I didn't need to wait for someone to go in to before deciding to stop using a molar strap.

If another rigger uses a molar strap or packs Racers, fine by me. But I won't.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

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Fact is it has occured. You admitted that yourself.

No I did not! I really wish you would stop miss-quoting me and misleading everyone! I have never said it happened, I only said I heard a rumor, specifically through a third party which carries zero weight with me.

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Just no one has needed the reserve when it was in that condition.

Wow, that is a dangerous statement, I need my reserve every time I jump.

FACT STILL STANDS, NOT ONE CASE IN OVER 30 YEARS HAS A RESERVE FAILED WHEN NEEDED!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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No I did not! I really wish you would stop miss-quoting me and misleading everyone! I have never said it happened, I only said I heard a rumor, specifically through a third party which carries zero weight with me.

When you said you had heard of the pop top being over tightened, I took that to mean you knew that it has happened. I know it has happened, more than once.

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Wow, that is a dangerous statement, I need my reserve every time I jump.

You use you reserve on every jump? That's a lot of reserve rides.

I'll re-phrase. No one has needed to deploy their reserve on an over-tightened pop top rig resulting in a fatality. Clearly that is what I was saying.

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FACT STILL STANDS, NOT ONE CASE IN OVER 30 YEARS HAS A RESERVE FAILED WHEN NEEDED!

And I am not disputing that. My point is pop tops have been over tightened and the reason they haven't failed is the same reason a reserve hasn't been deployed with a molar strap around it. Not very many molar straps have been left on reserves and reserves don't get used very often, making it very unlikely that a reserve will ever be deployed with a molar strap around it. But, if some has a malfunction and their rigger left the molar strap on the reserve, we won't be able to say it has never happened anymore. I suspect if that were to ever happen, molar straps would fall out of fashion.

Fact is that someone other than the rigger that packed it may tighten a pop top. They can over-tighten the pop top. This has happened, creating an impossible pull on the reserve. Fortunately no one has ever attempted to deploy their reserve when it was in that condition.

Saying it has never happened doesn't mean it never will. I choose not to put my seal on pop tops rigs for that reason. It may be over kill on my part, but I have the luxury of making that choice. I don’t see any reason to take the chance.

Derek

[NightJumper 0]

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Saying it has never happened doesn't mean it never will.

That can be said for any rig made.

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I choose not to put my seal on pop tops rigs for that reason. It may be over kill on my part, but I have the luxury of making that choice. I don’t see any reason to take the chance.

Then you need to stop rigging! Over tightened closing loop have KILLED people on other rigs but you chose to continue to pack those rigs. And don't bother with the lame excuse as to if you can tell if it has been tampered with or not because that will never bring the dead back. You ignore a 30 year safety record but you stick your head in the sand when it comes to the safety of other rigs that have killed people for over tightening. Keep up the BS and I will keep stating fact:

No rigger has ever been held accountable for an excessive pull outside of their control! 30 years and not a single injury or death! Dispute that!!!!!!!!!! Oh that is right you can't.

[riggerrob 558]

This thread should end.

[mjosparky 3]

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Over tightened closing loop have KILLED people on other rigs

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when it comes to the safety of other rigs that have killed people for over tightening.

Do you have a reference of source on these rigs that "have killed people for over tightening"? I can't remember hearing of any.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggingplace 0]

I agree with Rob....This thread should end.
Rob:
When I got my first SST in 1976 it had a floating loop not a quick loop but more like the loop on a softie sewn all the way across and routed in a channel in the hat. I like the quick loop better.

Mike Gainey
Master Rigger
DPRE