17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving!

[robinheid 0]

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http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/skydiver's-crash-landing-in-middletown

Very sad situation and I hope the girl makes a full recovery. My thoughts and prayers go out to her and her family.

I have voiced my opinion on the owner of this DZ as some of you know. However, as a skydiver none of us want to see this happen no matter how you feel about other DZ's.

So, what happens now to Start and the skydiving industry? I know 17 it is 'allowed' by the USPA with parental consent, but should it be done....NO!
18 years old is an adult. Anything under 18 is just a child that is having their rights signed away. This has been going on since the USPA stepped aside and washed their hands of it. The USPA need to put their food down and say no one over 18 period!!!!

Any thoughts?

Just one:

Get a grip, dude.

Whaddaya gonna say next time a 70-year biffs?

Mandatory retirement age?

I've skydived with 11-year-olds and 14-year-olds who were way more on the ball than their technically "adult" counterparts, and with some old, OLD farts who were way more dialed in than their still-in-their-prime skygod counterparts.

There are indeed some peeps who shouldn't be skydiving at any age -- just as there are some peeps who should keep their silly opinions to themselves -- but in both cases, we know that ain't gonna happen, is it?

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[davelepka 4]

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Would it change anyone's opinion if you knew that her father was in the first jump course with her?
It would be tough to legally draw the line in terms of a skydiving age limit when you can fly a plane at 16 or 17. How can you tell someone they can't fly a parachute then? You're the pilot in command either way.

Keep in mind that before you are the 'pilot in command' of an aircraft, you fly with an instructor until they feel you are ready to fly solo. If you were comparing it to a tandem jump, I would agree. In the case of AFF, it is not related because once the canopy opens you are alone, 'pilot in command' from the get go.

I'm not sure if the age of the jumper, based on jumper performance alone, is really relevant. I know kids who started jumping at 14 or 15, and both did very well and are still jumping today. These were DZO kids who grew up on the DZ, which probably played a part.

In terms of the general population, 16 seems like a good place to start. If you can earn a drivers license, you should at least have a shot at a skydive. By that I mean that if you show up and act like a 'kid', don't be surprised when they give you your money back. If you act like a person who understands what they are getting into, conducts themselves accordingly, then gear up and go.

All of that, however, is for Canada and the rest of the world. In the US, it should be 18 just to keep the waiver on solid ground. DZs are already fighting a losing battle in court because there is a plantiff who is either dead or visibly injured, neither of which looks good. When that person happens to be a minor, it's even worse. if there's any legal notion that the waiver might not be valid, you can expect that to be exploilted to the fullest in the suit. The solution to the problem is to ensure that the person signing the waiver is the same person making the jump, and that they can legally enter into a contract in the state in question.

[Andy9o8 0]

I think your post #27 is the most sensible approach, both re:
- practical abilities & judgement, and
- legalities.

[dbcooperfan 0]

I do have a grip about this topic. Respectfully, I don't believe you do. It isn't about how far OVER the age of 18 it is, it's about if you are UNDER the age of 18.

There are people at every DZ that shouldn't be jumping whether it is age related, physical, mental (in most skydiver cases) or whatever. That is not the point.

The question is whether a "minor" should be able to have their parents sign their rights away. In the U.S. just to be clear.

I have said it before and will stand strong when I say NO! There are too many ambulance chasing lawyers that drool over a case like this and can't wait to burn a DZ to the ground if they can make money off of it.

If 16 seems to be the magic number than the Tandem industry and USPA need to make it 16 WITHOUT parental concent. But what about the 14yr old...or the 12yr old....or 9. It just opens the flood gate for disaster of our sport.

"TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

[Andy9o8 0]

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The question is whether a "minor" should be able to have their parents sign their rights away. In the U.S. just to be clear.

And this is why I jumped your shit over in the Incidents thread. In the US, a parent cannot sign-away his/her juvenile child's right to sue. In most (maybe all?) US states, once the kid hits the age of majority, the waiver signed by his parent will not act as a legal bar to the kid suing on his own behalf. Frankly, even before the injured kid hits 18, an adult acting as guardian on behalf of the kids can sue on behalf of the kid. The only thing the waiver signed by the parents will do is bar the PARENTS from suing ON THEIR OWN BEHALF - not the kid's.

That's precisely why I have always urged my legal clients in the skydiving industry not to let minors jump (or jump their equipment or planes, or be their instructors) - for the clients' own legal protection, because the kid's legal rights most definitely are NOT signed away.

Learn first; then speak.

[normiss 620]

IMO this is clearly all about the legality.
A number of state courts have decided that a parent cannot waive rights their children have not yet attained as they are not legal adults, nor does a parent ever have the ability to waive a minor's right to sue.

I'm curious how much longer the FAA will allow minors to fly.
My guess is until a major player in the industry is sued to damn near non-existence.

[dbcooperfan 0]

So you agree with me that no one under the age of 18 should jump because there is a HUGE risk that legal action will take place when a "minor" is injured skydiving? Regaurdless of who signed what?

Am I understanding you correctly?

"TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

[popsjumper 2]

I'm getting a good kick out of the bozos coming out with, "Well I know someone who....." lame ass reasons for allowing under-age kids to be skydiving as if 'those people' justify your position.

You people just don't get it.

Law is law and the reasons for the limitation have been explained to you over and over again. You don't like the law? Do something to get it changed instead of whining about it.

And for the record, I oppose letting any body skydive who cannot legally sign the waiver and be held accountable to it. Parents signing for underage kids just doesn't cut it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 3]

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I'm getting a good kick out of the bozos coming out with, "Well I know someone who....." lame ass reasons for allowing under-age kids to be skydiving as if 'those people' justify your position.

You people just don't get it.

Law is law and the reasons for the limitation have been explained to you over and over again. You don't like the law? Do something to get it changed instead of whining about it.

And for the record, I oppose letting any body skydive who cannot legally sign the waiver and be held accountable to it. Parents signing for underage kids just doesn't cut it.

+1

When parents sign for their child you have 2 generations that don’t understand the law.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Mountainsky1 0]

I have been listening to this conversation for over 30 years. Minor this, lawyer that. Is there in fact case law, as it relates to skydiving where a negative judgement was awarded. No opinions, please facts!! Robin you should be a good one for this.

[Throttlebender 0]

+1

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[MorfiusX 0]

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So then - okay, here's your chance...
Please do... Elaborate / EXPLAIN!

I was making a generalization, which I admit was not clear in intent. So, I will elaborate as requested.

Some people do not handle high stress situations very well. Tunnel vision and mental shutdown (sensory overload) are some of the symptoms the one of these people may encounter when placed into a high stress situation. A person may not know that they can not handle this type of situation until they are placed into one. Unfortunately, when you combine this with skydiving, the result can be deadly.

The reason I said "This was one of those people" was that, from my completely uninvolved observation, this incident may be one of those cases.

I can see how you concluded that my two statements where opposed, maybe this will clarify the statements.

The main reason I replied was that the original poster seemed more interested in pointing a finger at Start Skydiving than actually learning something from the incident. As I have recently completed there training program, I felt I could provide insight from a trainee perspective. As right or wrong as it may have been, this was the reason for my reply.

The thought that I would have any exuberance in knowing someone has been seriously injured, frankly, saddens me. I don't know how my time in this sport (or jump numbers) has any bearing on my value and respect for human life.

Because I did not directly train or assist in any way in this incident, I will refrain from posting any details about it. I am not qualified to do so and will leave that to those who are.

Once again, the reason for my post was to share insight from someone who was recently trained at Start Skydiving because the original poster's comment where interpreted, in part, as attack against the people whom I know have safety as their number one priority.

[stratostar 5]

Back in the day when I made my first jump @ 16 yrs old, it was common place for that to take place.... I see no real problem with allowing youth of the age 16 and above to jump.

The problems arose out of greedy lawyers and some stupid parents who didn't "get it" that little suzy or johnny could get hurt or die, so when scum sucking ambulance chasing lawyer showed up..... that is when the problem started!

Let's keep underage people from doing anything fun, no skateboarding, snow skiing, snowboarding, biking, rollerblades, motoX, wave runners, jet ski, swimming...... keep them wrapped in bubble wrap and your lawyer on speed dial.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[dbcooperfan 0]

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So, what happens now to Start and the skydiving industry? I know 17 it is 'allowed' by the USPA with parental consent, but should it be done....NO!

To clarify my post...I simply ask a questoin as to what happens next? Why is everyone so quick to think that this is a shot at Start? If anything it is a shot at the USPA. There are DZ's that allow minors to skydive and as long as the USPA allows it they, will continue to take minors up and their money.

What needs to be clear is what are the laws (in this case Ohio) for a minor when the parents sign the consent form when something terrible like this happens?


Here is a a new article from the Middletown Journal:
http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/skydiver-defends-firms-safety-record-974540.html

You want it, here comes a shot at Start....notice how they hide behind Team Fasttrax (as usual). They can't even step to the plate and put their NAME on something that happened at their DZ! Total bush league!

Grow some hair on your beanbag Start and admit when you have a problem and you are working on it. Don't push it to someone else.

There is your shot!!!

"TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

[MorfiusX 0]

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You want it, here comes a shot at Start....notice how they hide behind Team Fasttrax (as usual). They can't even step to the plate and put their NAME on something that happened at their DZ! Total bush league!

I was there when the where talking to Randy (a fellow student). I refrained from talking to them for the same reasons I haven't talked about the details of the incident.

It was very clear they (there was a reporter and a camera guy) didn't know anything about the sport. I think the "Team Fastrax" thing is probably just an honest mix up seeing that the name is readily advertised at the DZ being that they are, from what I am aware, a sponsor. All "official" (and I use that losely) signs do say "Start Skydiving".

I think you are making an assumption that Start is hiding behind Team Fastrax. The reporter had a job to do and then moved on. Being a very small local paper, he may have just overlooked the mistake before the story ran.

[Scrumpot 1]

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I was making a generalization

No you weren't. you were VERY specific:

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Some people just shouldn't skydive, regardless of age. This was one of those people.

Now you don't wan't to explain? - Typical.

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The thought that I would have any exuberance in knowing someone has been seriously injured, frankly, saddens me.

That is not what I said. You are now twisting my words. You are trying to deflect the entire point of this conversation. That is not what I said at all.

What I said in my post to you was:

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I realize that you are "new", and maybe you just don't "get" the implications / ramifications of your statements (posts) here. Sheer newby exuberance to post in public places saying (in essence) "ooh, ooh - look at me, and what I KNOW" can (and has) gotten at times, to the best of us.

The exuberance I am referring to was evident (and still is) in your for whatever reason - feeling the need to post ...although clearly, by your own admittance now, you obviously know absolutely nothing of what you are talking about! Yet you come on here, to an open and PUBLIC forum and you make a VERY DEFINITIVE statement - which the above most clearly, certainly and inarguably is. A statement you are incapable of, and have absolutely nothing ...no manner of substance, background or experience apparently at all, to back up.

I am calling you out to back it up.
Either you can, or you cannot.
Apparently - You cannot.

So rather now, you instead decide to (only now) upon reply to someone "calling you out", state:

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Because I did not directly train or assist in any way in this incident, I will refrain from posting any details about it. I am not qualified to do so and will leave that to those who are.

There you go.
Get it?

Maybe you should take your own words and "advice" that exists in only that very last statement you have finally made there, and THINK a little bit 1st, the next time before you post.

...Or, give "expert advice" to newbies around the dropzone as well for instance, -or whuffo's that are asking questions about jumping/jump operations, etc. - THAT is the exuberance to which I am referring to. Some of us "old timers" over the years have seen plenty of exuberant neophytes, whose exuberance can get the best of them. THIS is what I said, and am now trying to HELP you out with (I truly am... whether you can see that for yourself right now at this very moment or not). I have a feeling you are "one of those".

Think about what both the implications, and the ramifications of your "expert" statements may be, BEFORE you make them!

Again, your quote - top, center and MOST PROMINENT, from your original post:

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Some people just shouldn't skydive, regardless of age. This was one of those people.

I asked you what makes you qualified to come on here, out into an open and public forum - and spout out such statement? Apparently, nothing.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[airtwardo 6]

I was there when the where talking to Randy (a fellow student). I refrained from talking to them for the same reasons I haven't talked about the details of the incident.

It was very clear they (there was a reporter and a camera guy) didn't know anything about the sport. I think the "Team Fastrax" thing is probably just an honest mix up seeing that the name is readily advertised at the DZ being that they are, from what I am aware, a sponsor. All "official" (and I use that losely) signs do say "Start Skydiving".


I think you are making an assumption that Start is hiding behind Team Fastrax. The reporter had a job to do and then moved on. Being a very small local paper, he may have just overlooked the mistake before the story ran.

It is unfortunate to see in print things stated as fact that in reality are perception, backed by limited or even incorrect information...


For example someone with say 25 jumps all at the same dropzone stating unequivocally that THEIR instruction is 'top notch'.

I'm not saying that it's not, just that the statement can easily be misconstrued...top notch compared to WHAT...all the 'other' drop-zones that person has been trained at and exposed to?

Get my point?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 0]

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What needs to be clear is what are the laws (in this case Ohio) for a minor when the parents sign the consent form when something terrible like this happens?

Sigh. Read the first paragraph of my post #30, which was addressed to you. Then re-read it. Then re-read it again. Then re-read it again. At some point, it either sinks in, or it doesn't.

[Scrumpot 1]

On another note entirely, related to this incident...

Does anyone have any update as to this girl's condition, how she is doing, and/or what her prognosis for a full and complete recovery from her injuries may be?

Sending my VERY BEST WISHES and THOUGHTS to the injured, as well as all those affected and concerned now too, by her mishap.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[councilman24 36]

I have an answer for you but lawyers read this forum too.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[jtnesbitt 0]

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Grow some hair on your beanbag Start and admit when you have a problem and you are working on it. Don't push it to someone else.

There is your shot!!!

What exactly do you think the DZ is hiding?

You've got an ax to grind, everyone knows and yet you refuse to admit it. THAT is the only thing being hidden.

The article clearly stated its a numbers game. The DZ does hundreds of thousands of jumps, not just tandems they do a LOT of AFF, and only 3 serious injuries in a year. (2 of which were swoopers.)

Why dont you man up and tell us who you are and what your beef is? No one is taking you seriously otherwise.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[dbcooperfan 0]

I have never hid the fact that I don't like Start and how the do business. And as you said "everyone knows" it. So theres no mystery there? Also, most of you know who I am so no need to go down that road.

This thread is about if minors should be jumping. Please stay on subject or it will get locked.

This poor girl is going to have to live with two broken femurs, a broken pelvis, and a broken jaw for the rest of her life. It was her choice and her parents let her do it. I just don't think the risk is worth putting newbies (under the 18) is worth that chance. IMO

"TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

[jtnesbitt 0]

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I have never hid the fact that I don't like Start and how the do business. And as you said "everyone knows" it. So theres no mystery there? Also, most of you know who I am so no need to go down that road.

This thread is about if minors should be jumping. Please stay on subject or it will get locked.

This poor girl is going to have to live with two broken femurs, a broken pelvis, and a broken jaw for the rest of her life. It was her choice and her parents let her do it. I just don't think the risk is worth putting newbies (under the 18) is worth that chance. IMO

If you want to keep the thread about minors and skydiving, then please do that. You are the one that keeps bringing up the dropzone. In fact, if someone looks at your fake profile, EVERY post you have made bashes Start. Oh no, i dont just mean the two threads you have started, i literally mean every post.

And no, not everyone knows who you are. if they did then there would be no need for your anonymous profile. Take your own advice and "grow some hair on your beanbag"

As far as living with these injuries for the rest of her life? Are you serious? You do realize people heal right? Others have suggested numerous times you quit playing lawyer, I am also going to suggest you quit playing doctor since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about there either.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[Scrumpot 1]

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I just don't think the risk is worth putting newbies (under the 18) is worth that chance. IMO

When is her 18th birthday due? ...Next week? ...Next month? ...More nearly a full year away? And then regardless - please explain how with any answer you may give, this mitigates her chance of injury one way or the other really, in any way at all.

Or maybe I just misunderstand totally, your statement and the point you are trying to make with it here, entirely?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[dbcooperfan 0]

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As far as living with these injuries for the rest of her life? Are you serious? You do realize people heal right?

This girl will not be right ever again. She will have to live with these injuries for the rest of her life.

Show me one skydiver we know that has been hurt badly and had many, many surgeries that have healed completley and are "normal". We can't.

I hope she recovers and can live a normal life and this is just a bad patch for her. It is sad that this happened and it could have happened to any one of us (no matter what age). It would be nice to say it will never happen again but we all jump and that is part of our sport so we can't.

"TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971