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dbcooperfan

17 year old turns in at Start Skydiving!

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When someone of legal age gets hurt it looks bad on the sport becuase some crazy person did something stupid.



I had thought that the whole reason this incident happened, or its root cause - at least according to you (see your post in the related incidents thread HERE) was because the instructor on the ground radio was negligent? <---(paraphrased. ...I think your exact words were: IF he was trained correctly, SHOULD HAVE commanded the jumper to "get rid of her main")?

So then, how does this age of majority argument you seem still so intent on harping on here, have any material direct affect on the SAFETY & TRAINING issues or concerns (that is the real purpose of this forum - or so I thought) we should be discussing or considering, germane to this incident -and how is it appropriate to continue debating (at least in this forum venue) ad nauseum here in the 1st place?

Or - as others have pointed out, instead rather, you really have nothing more than an ax to grind, period? ANY (apparent) ax. Whether it has any actual merit or reasonable application for discussion as related to the actual incident (and its reasonable relative possible SAFETY & TRAINING considerations) discussion really, at all.

It is really starting to look like the latter. [:/]
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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When someone of legal age gets hurt it looks bad on the sport becuase some crazy person did something stupid.

When a 16-17 year old gets hurt doing the same exact thing, it is a HUGE news story...



BTW too - I've heard a lot LESS (in fact, other than DZ.com, I've actually heard independently on this one, absolutely NOTHING) on this incident, out of/from the mainstream media - - than what I've heard, read and now seen (on even my local 6o'clock news here in Baltimore AND CNN!) - on the guy with the 2-out landing in trees incident that happened just yesterday up in Pepperell.

And that guy is (reported to be) "in his 30's".
I'm just sayin'...

FWIW.
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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There is a strong science on human reaction to life-threatening stressful situations. In general, the science tells us that the most common reaction to threatening situations is to do nothing. That's right...to just freeze. It sounds like, although I do not know, that this happened to the injured jumper.

In these situations the body is flooded with stress hormones that are triggered by the hypothalamus-pituitary-adreanal axis (part of the deep limbic system in the brain). Cotisol and adrenalin flood the blood stream which cause other physiological symptoms (increased heart rate, for example). Also, under periods of high stress the brain can shut off auditory input (hearing) because it is not necessary to survival. The same can happen to the frontal cortex (the part of the brain responsible for rational thinking).

Physiologically, this is also why simple acts, such as removing a toggle from its stow, or following simple commands, become difficult if not impossible for some people.

Fortunately, most people can control, to varing degrees, how they respond to the new environmental stimuli they experience when they start jumping. Still, a minority of people cannot...and being able to tell who will, and who will not respond appropriately is difficult and prone to error.

That said, research also shows that individuals who are highly neurotic, who tend to focus on the potential negative things that can happen, and who are highly anxious tend to also be the same folks who become "overloaded" when stressed.

As this applies to safety and training: First jump courses tend to throw a lot of information at a person in a short period of time. The brain can only process so much information in a given period. For highly anxious people, information overload can contribute to an already elevated level of anxiety, as the person is not fully certain that they can or will recall everything when the time comes.

The question is: Are there any indicators that instructors can observe or measure during the first jump course that will provide some predictive insight into a student's future performance? If so, what, if anything, should be done with that information?

From my very limited experience, it appears that the use of training gear varies across DZ's. While most have gear to simulate emergency procedures and maybe even pulling the PC, many do not include direct training that includes supsension in a harness and/or removing and using the toggles. The first time I saw a toggle was under a fully open canopy descending from altitude. Just like people are trained in pc touches and "pulling red" it would make sense to also have them unstow the toggles. At a minimum, this would give the stressed brain something to fall back on.

Lastly, age does not appear to be a good predictor of who will and who will not vapor lock. The adolescent brain may be less efficient at decision-making, but given sufficient time most adolescents will make the same decisons adults do--even under periods of high stress. What appears to matter is the individual's neurological reaction to stress---which is not dependent on age.

There is a large science to human reactions to stress, and I would like to see more of it imported into the training of skydivers.

Sorry for the long post and my thoughts and prayers to the family of the injured jumper.
The dangers of life are infinite, and among them is safety.

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Speaking for at least some of us bozos...... uh... it's THEIR business, you know?



Well, Robin, in comparing us with other sport organizations, you used a lot of words that boil down to, "They do it, WE should too".
This is a typical comeback. I gets tiresome.

Sorry...I've never subscribed to that philosophy in any aspect of life.
Many people do stoopid stuff. That doesn't mean I should.

On top of that, who cares what THEY do? What THEY do doesn't affect OUR sport....yet.

Life is so much simpler when you play by the rules of the game. We wouldn't be having this discussion if everyone played by the age of majority rules.

Any time you step outside the boundary of the rules, you are exposing yourself to penalties and consequences. I just don't want OUR sport penalized because somebody elects, for whatever reason, to ignore the rules as they stand today.

Yes, as a business owner, one can make his own decisions about how to run his business. Sometimes those decisions adversely affect ALL related businesses.

Wouldn't it suck if YOU got sued because somebody else in your line of work screwed the pooch?
Oh wait...that happens a lot doesn't it?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Life is so much simpler when you play by the rules of the game. We wouldn't be having this discussion if everyone played by the age of majority rules...Any time you step outside the boundary of the rules, you are exposing yourself to penalties and consequences.



Any time you run a business--ANY business, but a DZ is no exception--you are exposing yourself to penalties and consequences. If you try to follow all the rules that the lawyers will try to lay down, you'll never get your business off the ground (literally if it is a DZ).

A good entrepreneur listens to the lawyers but it is the entrepreneur, not the lawyers, who runs the business.

Or--to put it more succinctly--robinheid is right.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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Any time you run a business--ANY business, but a DZ is no exception--you are exposing yourself to penalties and consequences.


Well, I was talking about penalties and consequences of violating the rules.

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If you try to follow all the rules that the lawyers will try to lay down, you'll never get your business off the ground (literally if it is a DZ).


I don't agree with this. I'm not familiar with any rules of business that prevent the business from getting started.

Now if you're talking about skimming the rules to get your business started and running more cheaply, then yes, I see your point. But then, you're exposing yourself if you get caught. Bill Dause and Lodi come to mind here.

Which leads to my statement about life being much simpler...you wouldn't be looking over your shoulder all the time waiting for the hammer to fall.

Again, the rules for age requirements are written by the State and concern the rights of minors.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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So then, how does this age of majority argument you seem still so intent on harping on here, have any material direct affect on the SAFETY & TRAINING issues or concerns (that is the real purpose of this forum - or so I thought) we should be discussing or considering, germane to this incident -and how is it appropriate to continue debating (at least in this forum venue) ad nauseum here in the 1st place?



Good point.
So, let's put the age requirement thing to rest in this thread.

The age requirement is, as has already been pointed out, impossible to use as a tool for deciding suitability for skydiving.

The Prof raised some good points but what do we do? Give aptitude tests? I have no clue.

There's just no telling what a student or even an experienced jumper will do when the stuff hits the fan.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Any time you run a business--ANY business, but a DZ is no exception--you are exposing yourself to penalties and consequences.


Well, I was talking about penalties and consequences of violating the rules.

Quote

If you try to follow all the rules that the lawyers will try to lay down, you'll never get your business off the ground (literally if it is a DZ).


I don't agree with this. I'm not familiar with any rules of business that prevent the business from getting started.

Now if you're talking about skimming the rules to get your business started and running more cheaply, then yes, I see your point. But then, you're exposing yourself if you get caught. Bill Dause and Lodi come to mind here.

Which leads to my statement about life being much simpler...you wouldn't be looking over your shoulder all the time waiting for the hammer to fall.

Again, the rules for age requirements are written by the State and concern the rights of minors.



Pops,

I must respectfully point out that your "argument" is incoherent.

Nobody is violating any "rules."

There is NO RULE that says a 17-year-old, or a 5-year-old, cannot jump.

There is NO RULE that says a DZ or other business cannot try to protect itself by having customers sign WOLCs, even if those WOLCs are not likely to hold up in court.

So, please, tell us exactly what "rules" you keep demanding that we follow in order to make life simpler?

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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By-the-way... I've still not seen ANYTHING at all anywhere - coming out from within the mainstream media here on this story. I'm hard pressed to even really find very much either - even when I go out to actively search, and actually look for it either.

OTOH - that 2-out of a 35-year-old into trees story, coming out of Pepperell, was just AGAIN shown on my local television newscast broadcast here in Baltimore.

Just FWIW.

EDIT TO ADD: Maybe DB, you just haven't "alerted that mainstream media" quite vociferously enough yet, to get it to effectively catch on? ;)
coitus non circum - Moab Stone

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Not rules per se, but laws.
In some states it becomes flat out illegal due to parental waivers.



name one and provide the cite.

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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Not rules per se, but laws.
In some states it becomes flat out illegal due to parental waivers.



I'm not going to do a 50-state survey (for free :)), but I'm unaware of any US states that have laws specifically prohibiting minors from skydiving. (And if there are a couple, then fine, there are; I just don't know about them.)

I advise my clients in the skydiving industry to have waivers that are as comprehensive as possible, and to be very strict about assuring all jumpers sign them. Why? Because in the US, the waiver is really the only practical way a DZ (and other skydiving industries, like jump plane owners, gear lessors, etc.) can do business without running an unacceptable risk of getting wiped out and shut down with a single lawsuit.

With this in mind, I also advise them never to jump minors. But I do so not because it's illegal to jump a minor (because it generally is legal), but because the waiver is null and void as to any of the minor's rights, so they leave themselves without the benefit of an absolutely vital shield against civil liability.

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I never said "skydiving is illegal for minors".
However, there ARE states in the US that once something happens, the waiver has ZERO chance of standing up in court.
The dz, the instructor, the management, the parachute manufacturer, the airport, the aircraft manufacturer, and the pilot are all at risk of being sued out of existence.
If you're willing to accept this risk, good luck.

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Rules...laws...whatever.
Age of majority laws.
Age of consent laws.
Age of beer laws.

You know....rules!

As far as waivers and youngsters and skydiving....Again, the state-written rules/laws for age requirements for signing your rights away.

As far as life goes, all rules/laws pretty much.
It's nice not to have to worry about getting a DUI if you don't drink. Those kinds of things.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Within the article, it states that "According to Newsom, a skydiving accident that injured a 17-year-old girl Sunday is being investigated by the company and the Federal Aviation Administration." *(emphasis added by me)

Does anybody know if this statement, or quote, is accurate? Is THE FAA really, and indeed - directly now, actively investigating this incident?



possibly off topic... but its a distinct possibility that a local FSDO has performed an investigation... he is an experienced/active skydiver...

I know he performed an investigation of the incident involving a swooper at the beginning of the year... because I was at the airport when he did it...
Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

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sorry mate b ut you haven't got a fu#$%n clue. I did my first jump at 15 and had over 500 by the time i was 18. Also taken people 14 and above for tandems who have been very switched on, mature people. Age has nothing to do with a persons mentality and ability to cope with situations. Age has nothing to do with a persons ability to cope in situations

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It's funny how in America you give 16 year old kids a ton of metal on wheels to play around with, yet QQ and rage about if any of them falls out of a plane at the same age..

:DB|

Honestly, you guys are totally fucked up when it comes to laws n shit..
"Dream as you'll live forever, live as you'll die today." James Dean

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Honestly, you guys (Americans) are totally fucked up when it comes to laws n shit..



THIS is so true and cannot be debated.

Can't even get laid until the age of consent without somebody getting into trouble.
[:/]

How did you older guys feel about this back in the day?
Protesters against the idea of young people fighting the Viet Nam war but not old enough to vote or even buy a beer legally. Old enough to die but not old enough to vote or buy a measly beer.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I could hold my liquor at 14....

I was also driving...

Some of the logic on this thread leads me to believe I shouldn't have gotten introuble for doing either of those things, but I did. I probably should have been drinking while driving at 14, maybe I would have gotten away with it then too.

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My parents had to sign a release when I joined the Air Force. That was a huge decision that I made halfway through high school. People under 18 are capable of making important decisions. Parents just need to make sure that the kid is making an informed and mature decision.

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First off thoughts and prayers to the injured young lady!! No matter what the circumstance she deserves our support in a speedy recovery.

Now to the conversation of waivers for under 18, in every sport that my child has played since she was 4 I have had to sign a waiver for her to participate. Cheerleading is one of the most dangerous sports around, but we routinely sign 5-17 y/o waivers. These are not required tasks but elective sports. Football leagues are the same, soccer, rugby etc. etc, so why is skydiving any different?

The better question is why do we allow ambulance chasing lawyers rule what we have the freedom of choice to do? This society is so full of weak ass kids, its good for a kid to learn about safety and consequence. i am all for protecting our kids, but I am not for padding them so much they can't function when someone calls them a bad name that they go on a shooting spree or commit suicide.

I think many sports help toughen up kids. They learn how to win and lose, they learn their capabilities and limitations. So many lessons can be learned by being involved in sports. Yes, skydiving is dangerous and in some cases deadly but there are so many other sports kids participate in every day that can permanently debilitate them as well and again we as parents sign away. How is this incident any different?

One last opinion, I received a good deal of my training at Start and upon being licensed have returned there several times, while at the same time I have been to several other drop zones as well. During my training and my visits Start's concentration on safety has been strictly enforced and highlighted repetively! I have not met one instructor at Start that I don't respect and value their expertise. Each one I have met does not contend to be a skygod and continuously train to learn how to more safely and efficiently train their students.
THRIVING IN MY DASH!!

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First off thoughts and prayers to the injured young lady!! No matter what the circumstance she deserves our support in a speedy recovery.

Now to the conversation of waivers for under 18, in every sport that my child has played since she was 4 I have had to sign a waiver for her to participate. Cheerleading is one of the most dangerous sports around, but we routinely sign 5-17 y/o waivers. These are not required tasks but elective sports. Football leagues are the same, soccer, rugby etc. etc, so why is skydiving any different?

The better question is why do we allow ambulance chasing lawyers rule what we have the freedom of choice to do? This society is so full of weak ass kids, its good for a kid to learn about safety and consequence. i am all for protecting our kids, but I am not for padding them so much they can't function when someone calls them a bad name that they go on a shooting spree or commit suicide.

I think many sports help toughen up kids. They learn how to win and lose, they learn their capabilities and limitations. So many lessons can be learned by being involved in sports. Yes, skydiving is dangerous and in some cases deadly but there are so many other sports kids participate in every day that can permanently debilitate them as well and again we as parents sign away. How is this incident any different?

One last opinion, I received a good deal of my training at Start and upon being licensed have returned there several times, while at the same time I have been to several other drop zones as well. During my training and my visits Start's concentration on safety has been strictly enforced and highlighted repetively! I have not met one instructor at Start that I don't respect and value their expertise. Each one I have met does not contend to be a skygod and continuously train to learn how to more safely and efficiently train their students.



+1

B|
SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

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