Skyrad 0 #76 January 15, 2013 Whadaya know, turns out it really wasn't about the bike after all! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #77 January 16, 2013 At least the history demonstrates that Armstrong was competing with a level playing field - they were all doped. Though Pantani was also buoyed by cocaine. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #78 January 16, 2013 QuoteAt least the history demonstrates that Armstrong was competing with a level playing field - they were all doped. Not all - read the statement I just linked. And also not in the sense that, as USADA alleges, Armstrong was the kingpin of the most sophisticated individual and team-wide doping program that existed, even during those dark days. (And I'd still put pro cycling of the late 90's/early 00's against the NFL of today for rampant use of 'medicines')Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #79 January 16, 2013 QuoteAt least the history demonstrates that Armstrong was competing with a level playing field - they were all doped. Only the winners were doped. The honest people had their careers ruined by the cheats. That's why Armstrong deserves no sympathy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #80 January 16, 2013 Cycling and dope go together like, well, cycling and doping. And sure, sport and performance enhancement go hand-in-hand. How many old athletes were hopped up on strychnine? In the 60s and 70s, amphetamines were big in all sports. Toward the end of the 70s and into the 80s it became steroids. Then HGH. But cycling occupied its own niche. No dope no hope. It has been that way for a long time. It stays that way. There are a few people out there who don't dope - most of whom nobody has heard of. Nicole Cooke herself discusses it - she didn't dope and she and others who did not have suffered. The dopers may end up living in ignominity. The non-dopers live anonymously. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #81 January 16, 2013 Same with American Football. You just don't hear about it because they don't look for it - and when they do accidentally find something they don't make a fuss, they just sit the guy down for a month. In november two tight-ends on the same NFL team tested positive within a few weeks of each other. They each got 4 game bans, one of which was overturned when the guy argued in front of a non-independant board that there were procedural irregularities with the test. In cycling today that team would no longer exist.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #82 January 16, 2013 Excellent points.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #83 January 16, 2013 QuoteIn cycling today that team would no longer exist. I love following pro cycling. I love the sport. But I'm also pretty jaded. Doping, in cycling, is a lot more advanced and sophisticated than in US pro sports, because it has to be. Cheaters have had a long time to perfect their techniques. Even today, a team that touted transparency (Sky) is doing things that are very suspicious and clamping down on what little transparency it had: everyone talks about it, and nothing gets down.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #84 January 16, 2013 LA interview will be shown in two evenings, (Th & Fri), with simultaneous video streaming here: http://www.oprah.com/own-oprahs-next-chapter/Lance-Armstrong-on-Oprahs-Next-Chapter"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #85 January 16, 2013 QuoteSame with American Football. You just don't hear about it because they don't look for it - and when they do accidentally find something they don't make a fuss, they just sit the guy down for a month. I understand your points. The NFL is both good and not good but was the first pro sport in the US to implement testing. And they do it randomly – off-season, too. A guy being sat down for a month might not mean much. But sitting for four games means losing 25% of your income in a year. That could be $100k. It could be a million dollars. Lyle Alzado was the roid freak of roid freaks. Then he got brain cancer and blamed it on the steroids (which evidence doesn’t suggest had a causal effect). But he made it his dying mission to raise awareness of roids. And I think he was successful. Quote In november two tight-ends on the same NFL team tested positive within a few weeks of each other. They each got 4 game bans, one of which was overturned when the guy argued in front of a non-independant board that there were procedural irregularities with the test. Those were two cornerbacks on the Seahawks. And procedural irregularities DO occur. Sherman took a big risk, too – had he lost the appeal he would have been unavailable in the playoffs. Quote In cycling today that team would no longer exist. It’d be another team. Like Remi, I’m just too jaded on cycling. The NFL, to their credit, was doing something other than covering up. But other than bodybuilding, I cannot think of another pro sport that has doping so much of a cultural thing. Just look at the Tour De France with 7 years without a winner because the stand was obliterated by people kicked off for doping. No, I’m not defending pro sports. I think baseball has been almost as ridiculous as cycling but check out the Hall of Fame vote for this year. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #86 January 16, 2013 QuoteAnd they do it randomly – off-season, too. Actually, to my understanding, the NFL has very poor testing protocols. http://www.npr.org/2013/01/11/169117506/major-league-baseball-enacts-new-anti-doping-policies They talk about the NFL towards the end of the interview there.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #87 January 16, 2013 Every sport does. cycling. The IOC does. NFL. Every test is short-lived when they find ways to defeat it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #88 January 16, 2013 QuoteEvery sport does. cycling. The IOC does. NFL. Every test is short-lived when they find ways to defeat it. For me, testing as the main form of anti doping control is where they're going wrong. It's too difficult. It is so, so, so much easier to find to simply find drugs than it is to find drugs in someone's body. The biggest drugs bust in sport came when customs officials looked in the boot of an employees car. When Fench police received an allegation against David Millar they searched his apartment and found his two vials, even though they were hidden. Testing him had never found anything. Just imagine a knock on the door of the team bus: "Hello Mr Bruyneel, we'd like to look in your coolers." At the hotel room door: "Hello Mr Armstrong, Mr Hamilton, we'd like to look in your fridge." At the training camp: "Hello Mr Ferrari..." Of course they would adapt very quickly, but just the thought that an anti-doping official could turn up at any point during an event and simply find the smoking gun in your possession would have a huge effect.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #89 January 16, 2013 Quote "Hello Mr Armstrong, Mr Hamilton, we'd like to look in your fridge at the blood bags hanging form your walls above your beds." Fixed it for you Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #90 January 17, 2013 QuoteI cannot think of another pro sport that has doping so much of a cultural thing. Just about all your none-IOC strength sports. I lift in a tested federation for powerlifting (USAPL, which is the US rep organization for the IPF), but there are many other federations that do not test. Then there's strongman, which is a rapidly growing sport on the regional level. Don't forget wrestling, the majority of which is done outside of the lights of the WWE. It's done in civic centers and VFWs and high school gyms by regional leagues. There are many sports. Ever watch the documentary by Chris Bell? If you haven't, you should. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/ One of the most abused drugs on college campuses is Adderall. Students get prescriptions only to be able to focus for studying, students buy and sell those pills for the same. Safe you say because it is prescribed? Well, anabolic steroids and HGH have legitimate medical uses and are prescribed for legitimate problems as well. Adderall is an amphetamine. Students are using it to enhance their academic performance. Would all the PED nay-sayers for use in sports be up in arms about students doing the same for their grades?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #91 January 17, 2013 QuoteEver watch the documentary by Chris Bell? If you haven't, you should. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/ The Aggie is correct!"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #92 January 17, 2013 QuoteAdderall is an amphetamine. Students are using it to enhance their academic performance. Would all the PED nay-sayers for use in sports be up in arms about students doing the same for their grades? I doubt it's the same. I think it could be argued that students who don't suffer from some type of neurological disorder have the ability to focus and find motivation to study just as "efficiently" as those who abuse adderrall. Ya, it may be a bit more challenging but it's possible. In the case of PED, it's physically impossible for athletes who don't use them to achieve the same results as those who abuse them, no matter how hard they try. Up next....NZT-48.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dirtbox 0 #93 January 17, 2013 having a background in this it is interesting at wasn't in the mainstream media... Long story short I think you will hear a lot of sorry but no real confession. In the meantime Armstrong is trying to buddy with/pay Landis so he drops the whistleblower suit for defrauding the gov (Landis could get up to 30% of what to gov tries to reclaim is successful, unless LA pays him off first and he drops it and the US gov doesn't get in on the suit). Also admission make him liable to civil cases (a few companies would like the money they had to pay LA back, some have already started proceedings) aqnd a few criminal charges. Most interesting have been LAs meetings with USADA - it seem like he wants to compete in ironman and to do that he needs to get around the lifetime ban (this also brings new income with a new deal with Nike, kinda like what happened with tiger woods and his affair where nike dropped and then re-signed him) so he rolls on the UCI and WADA....of course nothing will change there, some musical chairs and BS but nothing will change.... but what is really interesting is that this network of doping has been valued at 30mil euro and didn't just involve masseuses... no there would of been some very shady types involved and who would of made a lot of money and wish to protect that money, somehow I don't think anyone will be mentioning them... Just a quick bit on doping in general - it is in every sport, look into operation puerto - soccer players, golden league athletics, base ball were all involved in the ring too, cycling just has lousy PR. Why should we stop it? Because you end up with 16yro riders learning from 25yro euro pros what to take...because the bathrooms at junior nations is littered with pill packets and more... because junior athletes test positive for drugs often... because even joe average is using and before they know it the veterinary drugs they took are causing huge problems and they are in an ER having bits of their insides removed...and none of those people ever made any money from it, they just though it was OK and what every one did... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #94 January 17, 2013 QuoteQuoteAdderall is an amphetamine. Students are using it to enhance their academic performance. Would all the PED nay-sayers for use in sports be up in arms about students doing the same for their grades? I doubt it's the same. I think it could be argued that students who don't suffer from some type of neurological disorder have the ability to focus and find motivation to study just as "efficiently" as those who abuse adderrall. Ya, it may be a bit more challenging but it's possible. In the case of PED, it's physically impossible for athletes who don't use them to achieve the same results as those who abuse them, no matter how hard they try. Up next....NZT-48. It is the same, your perspective is the difference. I'll finish with the following to give you a better perspective: Yesterday morning during my training session getting ready for a powerlifting meet in Feb, I squatted 500lbs. That's bar-bending weight that I took all the way down to a full depth squat and all the way back up with no one's help. I am a drug free athlete. If I used anabolics that number would be about 600lbs. 500lbs is a serious amount of weight and is an unimaginable amount of weight to squat for the large majority of the population. There are people who have to take anabolics to get to the point of squatting 500lbs. Just because something is hard, doesn't mean that someone HAD to use PEDs to achieve it.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #95 January 17, 2013 I don't think schools have rules against using those prescriptions when under a doctor's care. It certainly doesn't rise to the level of doping when the rules are clear and there is testing to enforce the rules. It's a bit different. I see the similarities, but it is different. This guy cheated. It is clear enough that he is mincing words to avoid prosecution, lawsuits, and other consequences.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #96 January 17, 2013 QuoteI don't think schools have rules against using those prescriptions when under a doctor's care. That's not the point. A lot of folks on PEDs have a doctor's prescription. Especially the pro-level guys in sports like Strongman and bodybuilding. The point is that we as society are only focusing on athletes when the problem is more pervasive in our society than that.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #97 January 17, 2013 Fair enough. I agree that prescription drug use is a problem. Where do you draw the line? We placed it in the hands of doctors. They don't seem to be telling their patients 'no' when they should. On the flip side, I think there are people who would benefit from some prescriptions and are not taking them for various reasons.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #98 January 17, 2013 QuoteIf I used anabolics I think the point was about Adderall not being the same... Roids, yeah, for sure. Ryoder had a nice article about an amateur cyclist and journalist who decided to find a doc to get him PEDs so he could dope and then document it. Very interesting stuff.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,382 #99 January 17, 2013 Quote Ryoder had a nice article about an amateur cyclist and journalist who decided to find a doc to get him PEDs so he could dope and then document it. Very interesting stuff. http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html?page=all"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #100 January 17, 2013 Appears he still does. I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
