Is higher education still worth it??

[Nataly 38]

Consider the below two options:

HIGH-SCHOOL GRADUATE # 1
- Goes to University (4 year programme)
- Takes out student loans (say, 50k?)
- First job at 22

HIGH-SCHOOL GRADUATE # 2
- Starts work at 18

If both are average students, and both have average career potential... Does the person with a university degree actually end up ahead on average?? If so, how long does it take to get ahead given the cost of university nowadays? Does the person with the degree really stand better odds of getting a much better job / career-prospects??

There are obviously WAYYY too many variables, but I think the guy who started at 18 could realistically be on equal (or better) footing at age 22 compared to the other guy... And it's not unimaginable for that guy (who has more experience) to also get to middle-management more quickly... And since he (or she) is not crippled by debt, even if he/she has a slightly lower salary on the whole, I wonder if in the long run he/she may not actually be better off?? (Assuming he doesn't get a dead-end minimum-wage job...)

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Southern_Man 0]

There are way too many variables to answer with a simple yes or no. Some situations, are, IMHO, clearly foolish. Financing with loans (completely) a private school education for a teaching degree is not going to be a very wise decision. Too much debt for a career with too little upside and a degree that does not make any pay differential from a degree from a much cheaper school. Averages still suggest somebody with a four year degree is much ahead of somebody without one.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Nataly 38]

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There are way too many variables to answer with a simple yes or no. Some situations, are, IMHO, clearly foolish. Financing with loans (completely) a private school education for a teaching degree is not going to be a very wise decision. Too much debt for a career with too little upside and a degree that does not make any pay differential from a degree from a much cheaper school. Averages still suggest somebody with a four year degree is much ahead of somebody without one.

Yes, obviously. Part of the difficulty is separating the "degree factor" to the "socio-economic factor." I'm going to grossly stereotype here, but university students typically already come from a comfortable middle to upper-class back-ground...

You also can't ignore other factors like race, gender, natural ability / intelligence, connections, et cetera, et cetera.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[theonlyski 3]

Generally speaking, I do better than my friends who have 4 year degrees... I have a 2 year degree that is worth less than the ink used to print it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[Glitch 0]

In addition... there are MANY companies that won't even consider an applicant for a position without a degree of some sort, whether the degree relates to the position or not.

That being said.... I think the cost of higher education is ridiculously high, for a number of reasons.

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[beowulf 1]

It depends on what the degree is in. If you graduate college with a sociology degree and $200,000 in student loans, it's not likely to be better off then someone with no degree and very low debt. It's more of a debt to income ratio, rather then education level. If you get a degree in electrical or mechanical engineering you are much more likely to be better off, although the hi level of debt is a big drag that needs to be dealt with.

[Nataly 38]

Quote

Generally speaking, I do better than my friends who have 4 year degrees... I have a 2 year degree that is worth less than the ink used to print it.

Difficult for me to have an unbiased opinion... I have degrees coming out of my ass!!!

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[DJL 232]

Students (and their parents paying for school) need to find out what the employment rate and pay is for graduates of any given program. Never forget that colleges make money first and provide an education second, not the other way around. If you go to a shitty school and get a shitty degree with shitty grades you're shit out of luck. Too many high school students are corralled into the mindset that college, college, any college is the only path.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[theonlyski 3]

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Generally speaking, I do better than my friends who have 4 year degrees... I have a 2 year degree that is worth less than the ink used to print it.

Difficult for me to have an unbiased opinion... I have degrees coming out of my ass!!!

I bet SOMEONE would pay good money for those.




I do have a pretty good background and several years in the industry (both military and civil), so that usually ends up getting me in a better position than someone that just graduated with a 4 year degree.

Then there are the people with liberal arts or psychology degrees...

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

I personally don't have one, but I did do a lot of college work in the field I was interested in. It probably has held my career a bit, but my career's been so all-over-the-place that it's hard to tell. I've always been more interested in cool technical work than briefcases full of cash. It doesn't hurt that there are briefcases though.

I've interviewed candidates for positions in my company and I've found that a degree really isn't an indicator of quality. I look for someone who's enthusiastic, attentive and likely to work well on my team. If they're enthusiastic and attentive, they can learn what he needs to know. If they think the interview's a chore and I'm just an obstacle to a fat paycheck, I assume they'll exhibit similar traits on my team, and I won't recommend them.

A degree WILL get your foot in the door with HR, but so will a few years experience. They pretty much stopped asking after I had five or six years in the industry.

More to the point, what you really need is to enjoy what you do, take pride in your work and always keep learning about your trade. These are things a university can't teach you. As they say in the Wizard of Oz, "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma."

I'm pretty confident, now, that if I can land an interview for a programming position, they'll give me that job. I know what interviewers look for (or should be looking for,) and I know how to show them that I know my shit and will work well in whatever environment they put me in. This is also something I haven't seen them teach in college. But I think that is something they could teach, if anyone ever thought to.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You need some sort of education to succeed in life, but one size does not fit all.

Is your higher education specializing in business, technology, medicine or science? Then with some hard work it can all be worth it. You could also pursue an education in law and proceed to become some sort of law professional and/or politician and then proceed to screw everyone else around you out of every last penny they have. Or you could pursue some useless liberal arts and/or social studies degree that puts you in massive debt but does teach you how to be a social activist in the pursuit to overthrow the capitalist world and replace it with a utopia global communist regime where all animals are created equal, except that some animals are more equal than others. Or you could avoid all this BS, study some sort of trade, leave school with little to no debt and where there is a shortage of work for decades to come. But silly me I forgot, academics have been telling people that the trades are only for stupid people.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Difficult for me to have an unbiased opinion... I have degrees coming out of my ass!!!

You should see a doctor.

I've got two years of college, enough for my job. Make low six figures with great pension and benefits. My son did 2 years of college his last 2 years of high school, got the same job at age 20. He'll be making about 90K when he's in a year or two, with lots of raises to come and good job security.

My oldest daughter, BS in Engineering, making 90K right now, moves from job to job like a lot of her generation does. She's getting her MS on line right now. Should pull down 6 figures with stock some day.

My second oldest got 2.5 years liberal arts before leaving school. Bartends. She's got the smarts to succeed where ever and whenever she decides what she wants to do.

My youngest doesn't want college, even though we tried. She's got an insurance license and is working as an assistant to a very successful agent. No telling how far she could go. Seems to have a knack with people.


I'll say the odds favor higher education. The stats sure seem to back that up. With that said, you need to tailor your education to the job market or be tremendously flexible in your plans.

[Nataly 38]

One size certainly does not fit all... I got a degree in English and History... I will never know how useful it really was because I've got so many other degrees/diplomas/qualifications along the way... Always studied and worked at the same time, so never had to borrow to pay for my degrees/diplomas/qualifications. Never taken any benefits from the government, either. And never been unemployed (except for a voluntary self-funded 10-month travelling/sabbatical).

I've had ups and downs in terms of salary, but usually due to switching career-paths. On average I have fared much better salary-wise than my contemporaries, but I have worked *extremely* hard for this. And I don't have kids. All things considered, I am not really sure I have enjoyed a better quality-of-life than my friends...

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[JohnMitchell 14]

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And I don't have kids.

Is that good or bad?

[normiss 622]

I have a few friends that graduated with 4 yr degrees and over $100k in loan debt.
They ain't that smart in my book.

[NWFlyer 2]

I feel like I've gotten my money's worth for both my bachelor's and masters' degrees, but I finished college almost 21 years ago and finished my masters' program almost 16 years ago. If I were starting today, I might make different decisions than I did back then just because the costs have skyrocketed and salaries haven't kept up.

I was fortunate that my parents were able to pay for my college costs, which were at a public university at in-state rates. I seem to recall annual tuition when I was going was somewhere in the $5K/year range, which was something that my family could manage with the money they'd been putting away to cover college costs. My best guess is the tuition even for in-state students is 4 to 5 times that amount now.

I paid for my own masters' degree, with loans, and I graduated with about 50 or 60K in debt. That was a lot and it took quite a while to pay off even with a decent salary (and I had a couple periods of not working during my debt payment period, having that debt didn't make dealing with unemployment any easier!), and I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone go into that kind of debt, let alone significantly more; but these days, that seems to be what it takes. So yeah, my decision might be very different if I had to face tuition as it is today.

If I had a kid looking to go to college right now, I might suggest that he/she do a couple of years at a community college (at a significantly lower tuition cost) while living at home to save money on expenses, then transfer into a four-year program for the latter two years. But even that can be tough these days as community colleges are squeezed with budget cuts and high demand.

All that said, I still think higher education has value, value that can go well beyond what you get out of it in increased salaries. But you have to make smart choices and understand that the cost/benefit may not be purely financial, and go into that with eyes open.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Nataly 38]

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And I don't have kids.

Is that good or bad?

Depends on how you look at it

I just meant that since most of my friends have kids, it's not really fair to compare my finances/career to theirs.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[wmw999 2,120]

Reasonably planned higher education is almost certainly worth it. I.e. yeah, $100,000 worth of loans for a teacher's job isn't.

The other thing to include in planning is that it's not necessary to get $100,000 for a BA unless there's a whole lot of "wants" to go along with the "needs." You'd better have a reason to go to that expensive school that makes it worth it.

That said, much higher education not only provides you with specific job needs, it also provides you with more and better tools with which to address your life and problems. It's not all about finding the job, unless your job is the only thing about you.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Consider the below two options:

HIGH-SCHOOL GRADUATE # 1
- Goes to University (4 year programme)
- Takes out student loans (say, 50k?)
- First job at 22

HIGH-SCHOOL GRADUATE # 2
- Starts work at 18

If both are average students, and both have average career potential... Does the person with a university degree actually end up ahead on average?? If so, how long does it take to get ahead given the cost of university nowadays? Does the person with the degree really stand better odds of getting a much better job / career-prospects??

There are obviously WAYYY too many variables, but I think the guy who started at 18 could realistically be on equal (or better) footing at age 22 compared to the other guy... And it's not unimaginable for that guy (who has more experience) to also get to middle-management more quickly... And since he (or she) is not crippled by debt, even if he/she has a slightly lower salary on the whole, I wonder if in the long run he/she may not actually be better off?? (Assuming he doesn't get a dead-end minimum-wage job...)

BS in engineering or physics - starting salary $60k. Certainly worth it.

BA in creative writing or womens' studies. Your guess is as good as mine.

(And college gets you higher quality dates too).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 24]

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(And college gets you higher quality dates too).

Yep. And no matter how old I get, college girls are still the same!

Remster

[NWFlyer 2]

This seems relevant ...
http://xkcd.com/1052/

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Well the other thing is we never really look at where the degree's from. It just gets you to the interview. Once you get there, El Cheapo U is as good as Harvard, at least for a technical trade.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[promise5 17]

For me personally it's not. I have a great job and make very good money for what I do. I could go to college and spend a lot of money and not make what I'm making now. Just not worth it for me,but for most people it is.
Just the debt involved UGH

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[Squeak 17]

job dependent a "higher education" will facilitate more employment opportunities.

Assuming you are not just isolating out University Education, but including Diplomas and higher level certificates,

However here in West OZ, many many people are leaving their degree required job to work in the mining industry as untrained labour or truck drivers.
The money here in Mining is ridiculously good. 100K+ for driving a truck

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[kallend 1,623]

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Well the other thing is we never really look at where the degree's from. It just gets you to the interview. Once you get there, El Cheapo U is as good as Harvard, at least for a technical trade.

Maybe for trades, but not for the professions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.