Camera Flying

[Fast 0]

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There are going to be diamonds in the rough that stand out, but it really is clear when you find one of them.

And here's the thing... Those WILL get to 200 jumps (or whatever #, for whatever discipline you are using) soon / "quick" enough. I really don't see WHAT THE BIG DEAL (i.e. RUSH/HURRY) IS. Seriously. Nobody is holding any of these "mad skillz" set back.

I mean, what's the deal? Gotta hurry up and get that camera (or wingsuit, or swoop, or whatever) on RIGHT NOW no matter what?? - Gotta hurry up before you get to jump #199 right - - - after all, you may even just have flat out QUIT and moved on by then. Right? This sh** gets old otherwise, right - after (or any longer than) jump #100 easily. 150 at the latest.

Better get ALL OF IT out that you can NOW - before you're ready to just hang it up and move on anyway.

I entirely agree with you. That is the exact sentiment that I am most annoyed with.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[rhys 0]

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I'm so sick of hearing about this country or that country.

I don't care about any of that. I think, 50 jumps is too few to be jumping camera. I think 100 is too few jumps to be coaching another skydiver. At about 200 jumps I'm comfortable with someone introducing one new thing.

Pick something: coaching, wingsuits, cameras, swooping, accuracy, freeflying... whatever it is that might trip your trigger and start to learn about that. Get a grasp on what is going on, get some coaching on the subject, learn about it. Once you have a basic grasp on that subject only then should you start to add something else.

You probably misunderstand what the commercial skydiving diploma course I attended has to offer. At 50 jumps we were practcing filming each other (without cameras) by pairing up. One flys around the other, while the other simply sits in place (at first) then the jumps become more dynamic. At 100 jumps we put a camera on while under dircect supervision of an instructor, we paractice and practice and have assignments in video and stills, and by 200 jumps we were ready to jump with a tandem and shortly after we begin filming them at a commercial dropzone. We were specifically trained from scratch to do that. Only one person that was on my course of 16 people had a skydiving license before starting the course.

We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

The course is a government sponsored and accredited tertiary commercial sydiving diploma that specifically trains camera flyers from scratch.

The focus is on training for camera from before your very first jump. Students do written assignements on safety, risk and crisis management, airspace, professionalism among other subjects.

There is constant coaching on offer and the focus is on camera, not freefly or wingsuiting or crw or formation skydiving, camera is the focus from a very early level.

It was not until I had about 350 jumps and working as a camera guy that I could affod to make fun jumps doing what I wanted like freefly etc. I was very focused.

I seriously doubt you have seen anyone go through a similar progression as there is not another training organisation in the world that offers such a course (as far as I am aware).

The reason our country has these type of schools (for various indusries) is that toursim is the second largest income for our country, adventure tourism is very important to our economy.

There are similar training courses for many other adventure sports and activities that are on offer in NZ as tourism businesses account for 10% of the workforce in the country and a higher proportion of the GDP. Without training courses such as these, we would be stuck with random scruffy sport skydivers from around the globe that have no background in the tourism sector.

Our DZ's are significantly different to yours, and that is probably why many on here are having trouble grasping the difference.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DSE 3]

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I'm so sick of hearing about this country or that country.

I don't care about any of that. I think, 50 jumps is too few to be jumping camera. I think 100 is too few jumps to be coaching another skydiver. At about 200 jumps I'm comfortable with someone introducing one new thing.

Pick something: coaching, wingsuits, cameras, swooping, accuracy, freeflying... whatever it is that might trip your trigger and start to learn about that. Get a grasp on what is going on, get some coaching on the subject, learn about it. Once you have a basic grasp on that subject only then should you start to add something else.

You probably misunderstand what the commercial skydiving diploma course I attended has to offer. At 50 jumps we were practcing filming each other (without cameras) by pairing up. One flys around the other, while the other simply sits in place (at first) then the jumps become more dynamic. At 100 jumps we put a camera on while under dircect supervision of an instructor, we paractice and practice and have assignments in video and stills, and by 200 jumps we were ready to jump with a tandem and shortly after we begin filming them at a commercial dropzone. We were specifically trained from scratch to do that. Only one person that was on my course of 16 people had a skydiving license before starting the course.

We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

The course is a government sponsored and accredited tertiary commercial sydiving diploma that specifically trains camera flyers from scratch.

The focus is on training for camera from before your very first jump. Students do written assignements on safety, risk and crisis management, airspace, professionalism among other subjects.

There is constant coaching on offer and the focus is on camera, not freefly or wingsuiting or crw or formation skydiving, camera is the focus from a very early level.
.....
I seriously doubt you have seen anyone go through a similar progression as there is not another training organisation in the world that offers such a course (as far as I am aware).

To be very clear about the NZ program;
while I agree it's a great thing...
Our DZ is a host to the NZ interns. We always have at least one, and occasionally more.

Despite whatever diploma is issued following completion of the course, the ones that I've seen here, in Byron Bay, and other DZs overseas...these guys are FAR from ready to fly camera once they're graduated. I've had several in my Coach Course, and have done many eval jumps with them. All of them have received the "B certificate" issued by the school. I've also helped a number of them get their camera gear set up, something that would have happened at the school were camera the focus you imply.

It's a terrific program, but it isn't what you suggest it is, either. At least not from what I've experienced in multiple locations.

[rhys 0]

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To be very clear about the NZ program;
while I agree it's a great thing...
Our DZ is a host to the NZ interns. We always have at least one, and occasionally more.

Despite whatever diploma is issued following completion of the course, the ones that I've seen here, in Byron Bay, and other DZs overseas...these guys are FAR from ready to fly camera once they're graduated. I've had several in my Coach Course, and have done many eval jumps with them.

Are you talking about flying with a camera or flying camera for a job?

Usually it will take another 100 jumps (or more) after the course for a student to be ready for work as a camera person, but they can pack and edit and do other duties around the DZ while in training. Most should be ready to jump with a tandem at 200 jumps and have the understanding and relative skill to be safe in doing so.

I did my first paid Jump at 270 jumps, I am training up another right now that has the same number, I would say those with good aptitude from the course will be ready at around 300 jumps to be a commercial camera guy 'if they put thier energy into it', some are never ready. Our latest student will be ready in a few jumps and has sold some of his footage already because it was in frame the whole time and he made a complete document of the customers experience, including great still shots.

The diploma itself is a worthless peice of paper, it is the experience behind the diploma that counts.

A NZSS student at your DZ would have to wait until they have 500 jumps before they can jump with a tandem would they not?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[matthewcline 0]

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A NZSS student at your DZ would have to wait until they have 500 jumps before they can jump with a tandem would they not?

In the U.S. with the Tandem using a UPT Rig (SIGMA or Vector II) Yes. The other two Rigs I would have to look up.

And this thread along with the others like it has gotten UPT's attention.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Ron 7]

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We very much pick something (camera jumping) and focus on it, we train and get coaching and train and do assignments and train and jump more than 5 times every day, 7 days a week weather permitting. Doing your first 170 jumps in 5 months is very current, and quite different to what most people experience.

What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhys 0]

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What you describe is FAR from normal. And a person that goes through a program like you describe might be ready at 100 jumps.... But that does not mean the normal average jumper would be.

It is pretty normal around here.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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And this thread along with the others like it has gotten UPT's attention.

Great, they should be aware of how things work in different places.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[billvon 2,384]

>Great, they should be aware of how things work in different places.

Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.

[rhys 0]

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Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.

Maybe they could start in San Diego?

talk to the S & TA there...

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[idodsick 0]

Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.

the diamond can not be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.

[DSE 3]

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Or they may decide to expend a little more effort telling DZ's how their gear is intended to be operated.

Maybe they could start in San Diego?

talk to the S & TA there...

San Diego has someone flying camera at 100 jumps?

[rhys 0]

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Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.

Depends if the operations regulations specifies that the manufacturers recommendations must be met or not.

At present this is not the case so it comes down to what the part 149 holder specifies.

This year the rules are changing in NZ, but I can imagine it will be similar to what it is now.

Who knows what will happen when prt 115 comes in.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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San Diego has someone flying camera at 100 jumps?

Not that i am aware of, that is not what I meant, bill knows what I mean.

There is no need for a tangent on the appropriate use of tandem equipment in a camera flying thread.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[idodsick 0]

It only has relevance when manufacturers rules only matter in the US. Those rules dont apply/arent used in other countries. Its not a standardized system. Maybe it should be, but its not. UPT says that i should have a D to jump with tandems. Thats what i am working toward. Aussie rules dont require it. If they wish to jump here they most meet our requirements. Why are some holding them to our rules in thier home country? That is all. Carry on.

the diamond can not be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.

[Ron 7]

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It is pretty normal around here.

You like to bitch that Americans only think skydiving is in the US.... You are currently doing the same thing and assuming only your country counts.

If I were to hazard a guess.... And we were to take every skydiver in the World... your exp would not be "normal".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,384]

>Maybe they could start in San Diego?

I think they'd be more likely to start at a DZ that posts regularly and at great length about their disregard for tandem operating procedures.

[Fast 0]

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Stop me if im wrong. Arent manufacturers ratings only valid in the US? As far as i understand NZ, AUS can do whatever they want with tandem equipment. Not saying its right or wrong.

Depends if the operations regulations specifies that the manufacturers recommendations must be met or not.

At present this is not the case so it comes down to what the part 149 holder specifies.

This year the rules are changing in NZ, but I can imagine it will be similar to what it is now.

Who knows what will happen when prt 115 comes in.

It's all fun and games till someone show's up at a court hearing and throws you under the bus for being ignorant of manufacturer recommendations.

Also, I think that you sure as hell need to qualify your posts on here. I most of the threads that you have been in crusading for people to jump camera's at 100 jumps and jumping with tandems at 200 you haven't even touched on the subject of a highly focused advanced training program.

Whether or not it's a quality program and if it makes a difference I'm sure is up for debate based on what DSE has said, but the fact of that matter is that, no one in the US has that experience or level of training. It's not happening here at all.

There are clearly differences in different places but even with that I just am not sure that the average person will wrap their head around the dangers of the sport and the implications of what they are doing in such a short period of time.

I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems, but it certainly isn't a model for the average skydiver.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[DSE 3]

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I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems, but it certainly isn't a model for the average skydiver.

The threat of being black-balled in a very small country whose economy is based in great part on tourism probably plays a role in the incident statistics.
Incidents happen in NZ, but you don't hear about them.

[davelepka 4]

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I mean, clearly it's working for you guys in NZ since we don't hear about a ton of problems

Based on what?

NZ has a total population equal to Kentucky. It's not a big place, and when he makes comments like 'The majority of jumpers here.....', how many jumpers does that really equal?

Let's go one step further, how many of those jumpers could possibly go through the 'skydivign diploma' program, and how many of them follow that up by actualyl working at an NZ DZ?

How many DZs are there, and how many positions could possibly be open looking for new jumpers? From what he says, everyone working in-air makes a shit-ton of jumps, so that would lend itseld to less working jumpers than more. There are a limited number of jumps made, and if all the TIs and camera guys are doing 1000+ every year, NZ is probably not the place to look for info regarding the success or failure of their programs.

The guy wants to shit on the US for a dozen reasons, but as previously pointed out, the MAJORITY of equipment and aircraft used in skydiving were designed and built in the US, to include the tandem rigs he jumps and the Cessna he flies at his DZ.

Take what he says with a grain of salt, and remember that he comes from a country with the population of Kentucky and same number of DZs as TX, CA and FL combined. Between the 175 extra DZs in the other 47 states and the 300 million more people, it might be time to stop shitting on the US so much.

[strop45 0]

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remember that he comes from a country with the population of Kentucky and same number of DZs as TX, CA and FL combined.

Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[billvon 2,384]

>Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...

If that's what you took from his post, you may have missed the point. His point was not about "where's better?" but rather about the number of DZ's per person. In that respect, NZ is much "better" than Kentucky (or even California.)

[davelepka 4]

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Since you come from a much bigger, better place, you win...

It's not a matter of that, it's a matter of the US having a much longer and more productive history in sport skydiving than NZ, and to use NZ as the example of 'what's right' ignoring that fact is a little shortsighted.

I read that the first commercial tandem DZ opened in NZ in 1990. How many DZs were around NZ before then? How many of the new ones were opened to cash in on the tourist tandem trade? 95%? 98%?

Back in 1989 when NZ had very little going on in the way of skydiving, the US had 100's of DZ, dozens of manufacturers who are still in business today (and represent the cornerstones of the industry) and multiple teams takign gold in international competition.

Like it or not, sport skydiving was born and bred in the US, and we have the longest history and greatest weath of experience and knowledge of the sport in the world.

I'm courious as the actual jumping population of NZ? 90-some % of all your jumps are tandems, and those are tourists. How many sport jumpers are there exactly in the whole counrty? To be conservative, the US has at least 15,000 current jumpers (figuring half of the 30,000 USPA members are current).

Excuse me for being skeptikal about following the lead of a micro-cosom of skydiving when it comes to training and licensed jumper progression.

[rhys 0]

You americans really need to get over yourselves.

There may not be many sport skydivers in NZ.
There are only 4 million people citizens in total here.

Who the fuck cares, and what the fuck does all that have to do with this thread and jumping camera.

You will find Australia is much, much 'looser' ( with what really happens) in regards to the number of jumps you will see people jumping with cameras, tandems etc. etc.

NZ has some of the strictest regulations generally speaking but with camera our laws are not ruled by litigation, we are not afraid of litigation here as you will find the;

"I'll sue the crap out of you" attitude does not really happen here. You can still sue others byt you will not see multi million dollar lawsuits ove some menial crap.

Our skydiving regulations are rules, yours are reccomendations.

Big difference. Our DZSO has the power to stop someone doing soemthing, a S & TA is an advisor.. big difference.

Yes we have a small population and yes we have lots of tourists. We have more tourists coming through every 2 years than we have people in our population.

Many of them want to skydive.

Our country is completly different to the USA, we have different rules, as we have differnt rules to Australia, South Africa, Canada and every other country in the world. many of these have different regulations to you, and allow jumoers to jumo with camera and tandems at much less experience that is required in the states.

( I really cannot believe I have to explain this again)

I am just saying how it works here, it has worked here that way since well before I started jumping and will continue for time to come.

We will be leading the way with the Part 115 adventure aviation standards this year.

Skydiving aviation will offficially be a commercial 'adventure' activity, and will be somewhere between part 149 'sport aviation' and part 135 air transport.

The ratio of sport and commercial skydiving here is completely different to the USA.

Yes we do shitloads of tandems, yes there are not that many sport skydivers and not all of them work in the industry.

There are about 100,000 tandems performed here annually give or take, most likely more these days (the growth is not slowing any).

So that allows 100 tandem masters and about 50 camera people to do 1000 jumps a year. But that it not exactly how it works, some will do 500 and other 1500.


NZ - 4millon people / 100,000 tandems = I tandem for every 40 citizens

America to have the same ratio would have to do;

307 million / 40 = 7,675,000

Would any of you say there is 7.5 million tandems in the US per annum?

I would say not, so that would tell us that NZ is actually proportionally much, much larger for tandem skydiving and hence the ratio of people here performing a steeper curve of total jump numbers.

I sure wish sport skydiving was stronger and I plan to help make that heppen but it would be impossible for us to have a proportionally similar amount of sport jumper to tandems as the USA a our population and the amount of tourists here simply does not allow for that.


It is simply different here, the seppo attitude that we should have to do everything the same as the americans because we are using american gear is simply arrogant, .

I have been to DZ's around america, I know many people that have worked and jumped at many more, and I have heard many many stories.

Do not pretend for a minute that the operations in the USA are all squeaky clean and all of your own DZ's follow the rules to the last full stop.

We have rules that accomodate the reality. You have rules determined by litigation, not common sense.

No matter what any of you say, Bills mates down at his old home DZ (and many other operations) breaking the rules and reccomendations in you country, by manufacturers in your country along with the many, many others with the same type of conduct, pose much more of a risk to the manufacturers, legally, finacially, logistically... than a bunch of dz's in different countries south of the equator with separate laws and legal systems.

It is a shame each thread I add input to, that somehow conflicts with the USPA or USA rules and reccomendations becoames a bitch fest of ostentatious posts from super_on_line_good_guys that pretend to live in some type of perfect utopia.

What a fucking joke.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[rhys 0]

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You like to bitch that Americans only think skydiving is in the US.... You are currently doing the same thing and assuming only your country counts.

Actually , I am merley pointing out that myself and many thousands of other skydiver from around the world are subject to different rules and regulations to america.

The arrogance an ignorance of americans on this website that think americans make up the larger proportion of skydivers in the world because a few dozen post whores form america make up the majority of the posts on this website, astounds me.

Yes there are alot of jumpers in the USA and there are a high proportion of americans on this website, but that does not mean the rest of the world should be excluded.

There are a couple of hundred more DZ's in europe alone as there are in the USA.

Remember that.

This is an international website.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix