krisco 0 #26 December 13, 2010 QuoteQuoteWhat I dont understand is if there are no minium requirements set in the SIM who regulates this and by what guidelines?Quote YOU do. YOU choose to take those recommendations/guidelines to heart or you choose to ignore them. Simple as that. The smarter ones take heed, the less smart ignore. The less smart seem to think that those recommendations were simply dreamed up one night around the bonfire. Oh, so sadly mistaken. The less smart seem to have it that their logic says the recommendations don't make sense. Oh, so sadly mistaken. The less smart seem to think their Mad Skillz override recommendations. Oh, so sadly mistaken. Good news: Some DZOs take those recommendations to heart. Bad news: Some don't. Some jumpers who choose to ignore recommendations scream about "freedom to do as I want". These are the immature in our midst. They are not mature enough to make good decisions for themselves. We are all free to do what we want...the smarter ones do it with prior knowledge, deep understanding, real skill and a strong sense of safety. Awesome! Nicely said..Skydivers are nothing but a bunch of Narcissistic A$$holes!! Front risers were made for pulling! Pal MuFF#5640 D.S. # 2012 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #27 December 14, 2010 QuoteHow much would it cost? Seems like I have read that some camera qualified dude will do it for the cost of their ticket and a nominal extra kick. That's really the "worst case" at most DZs I've been to. I know that at my home DZ, there are many "camera qualified" up jumpers who seek out novice jumpers to jump with and pay their own slots. They don't do it every load, but they do it a significant percentage of loads.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #28 December 14, 2010 QuoteAh, go pros... you do realize how dorky those things look right? By the way, another thing I've noticed when it comes to is that people who fast track their way through all the toys tend to fast track their way to being burnt out on the sport too. If you want to get better or, dare I say, good at anything you should be prepared to set goals that extend hundreds of jumps out. +1 Well put. They get past being a tourist. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #29 December 15, 2010 QuoteI look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse. More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent. Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera. By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera. But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier. Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits. Jump numbers have little to do with it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #30 December 15, 2010 And you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera. Just my opinion. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #31 December 15, 2010 QuoteAnd you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera. Just my opinion. That is your opinion because it has been drummed into you. My View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. I am yet to see any problems with it. When do you think it is appropriate to be a coach? Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #32 December 15, 2010 QuoteWhen do you think it is appropriate to be a coach? Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them? Hate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Para5-0 0 #33 December 16, 2010 QuoteQuoteI look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse. More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent. Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera. By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera. But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier. Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits. Jump numbers have little to do with it. Rhys, Respectfully, I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Aaron_O 0 #34 December 16, 2010 A camera is a distraction from the the very beginning to the very end of any skydive. Items may missed during a gear check because of a battery check on your camera. A lift web might be twisted but the jumper is paying more attention to the camera mount while gearing up. A handle is floating but the jumper is double checking that his go-pro is turned on on his way to the door. Get the idea??? It gets worse the further along in the skydive you go. A camera flyer must have sufficient experience to not only fly by second nature, but skydive by second nature. That comes with lots of experience!! 200 jumps is a minimum recommendation. That's a reasonable number of jumps to warrant an evaluation of one's ability to safely carry a camera on a skydive in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #35 December 16, 2010 QuoteThat is your opinion because it has been drummed into you. My View opinions is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. No ego in that statement. They are both opinions and there is no reason why yours should trump Dave's SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #36 December 16, 2010 QuoteMy View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. I am yet to see any problems with it. Sounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime. Your mileage obviously differs.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brucet7 0 #37 December 16, 2010 It is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ."POPS #10623; SOS #1672 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #38 December 16, 2010 Quote I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Dave Next time we're in the same room, ask to see my logbook for coaching students. It's roughly a 30% unsuccessful ratio. Unfortunately, there are examiners that "give away" the rating. I'm aware of more than a few coaches that showed up for the course, had breakfast, and left without any classwork and with zero eval jumps. Coaching and video can often go together, but flying video requires greater mental and physical skill than being a coach. I too, could agree with raising the jump # for the coach rating, particularly if USPA would have a required training program for cameras and/or required experience level. I believe camera may be a distraction whether you have 100, 200, or 5000 jumps. Having the physical and mental experience (time in sport) to deal with problems is the motivation for the recommended levels of experience. The sheer volume of this particular subject make sme think that safety is going to keep losing ground over "I wanna fly a lens" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #39 December 16, 2010 I started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc. But coaching requires you to be able to fly as needed to observe the student, remember what they did, and figure out what to debrief, without thinking about your own flying. In my opinion, you should be able strap a camera to your head and deal with those distractions before you should be jumping with students. You can be an amateur video guy, but as long as you're getting paid as a coach, you're a pro. There's no excuse for crappy coaching, but crappy video is just fine. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #40 December 16, 2010 I feel the difference is that as a coach, you don't have a coach saying "she's not doing that right, lemme angle my head to catch that on vid." It happens, and too often. And that's where the biggest difference lies. Flying as a coach may mean you're a professional beginner, but the coach process, the jumps that coaches are *supposed* to do (but often don't) are there to teach the very skills that a camera flyer needs. I do believe that coaching is a benefit to becoming a good camera flyer, *if* the coach examiner/evaluator are doing their jobs. there seem to be a few that don't give a damn because after all "It's just a coach rating."I still shake my head at a C/E who handed a wingsuiter a coach rating with no class time, no eval jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,384 #41 December 16, 2010 >By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. >It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive. Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training. Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #42 December 16, 2010 QuoteHate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Cool no need for a tangent, you get the drift. We are all allowed out differences of opinion, and we all have different rules to go by. What is considered right, comes down to the opinion and experiences of each individual."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #43 December 16, 2010 QuoteRhys, Respectfully, I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are. Fair call, but once again; I have seen many people begin camera at 100 jumps with no problems whatsoever."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #44 December 17, 2010 QuoteSounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime. These are just words, give us some substance... Show me the idiots that you suppose ruin it for the rest. This seems like a protective attitude the hinders the growth of your people. This attitude reminds me of ; Mothers wiping and cleaning everything with antibacterial wipes and soap to keep things clean for their children. Their children get ill more often. Those that are subject to a little dirt have better immune systems... If you set the rules for the lowest common denominator, you numb those with aptitude and hinder the growth of the sport as a whole. Maybe the problem lies with having 100 jump wonders running around being coaches and S&TA's that do not care enough to know what the people at their DZ are doing. If someone is not ready, then they should not be allowed to jump camera, this could be at 500 jumps. It seems you believe that I think that everybody with 100 jumps should put a camera on, this could not be further from the truth. It really comes down to the individual."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #45 December 17, 2010 Quote I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive. Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training. Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that Seriously Bill you need to grow up a little. You ridicule the system that works elsewhere absolutely fine, and try to make it all out as if It is my choice that it is this way, and try to make a stab (boarder line personal attack). This is childish and not becoming of a moderator. The rules in New Zealand have been around since well before I was jumping, and have nothing to do with me. Do not try to make this a personal thing. We don't allow people to take tandems until they have at least 1000 jumps. so our standards are higher in that respect. The USA is not 'the world' and this is an international forum, I respect that your rules are as they are, but that does not mean that rules that differ in other places are of a lower standard. Our rules are simply better. (that was a joke by the way)"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #46 December 17, 2010 QuoteI started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc. One does not need to film 4 way to use a camera. We had to jump a camera helmet without a camera before we could put the camera in( cameras were big back then), afer a jump or 2 like that we were allowed to put the camera in... then we were only allowed to do 2 ways with them until we could keep it in frame with no problems. It is an incremental growth, and when you begin, it takes various stages before you have the competence and experience to move to the next level. If you start with a camera (solo) at 100 jumps you may be able to film 4 way by 300 jumps. if you start at 200, then you may not be able to do 4 way video until 400 jumps... You have a S&TA for a reason... USE them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #47 December 17, 2010 QuoteIt is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ." And then there are those with inflated egos that think that their way is the only way and anything other than what they are used to is inadequate."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #48 December 17, 2010 QuoteOne does not need to film 4 way to use a camera. That was kind of my point... anyone is allowed to shoot video of anything, no matter the quality. Coaches should be held to a higher standard, like paid video flyers. Unfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power. Recently we're seeing more and more that people can't follow recommendations on their own... canopy size, cameras, etc. Everyone thinks they're better than average, so the recommendations don't really apply to them. I see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, but we're seeing more and more of them doing it. They rarely take their own skill, currency, or judgment into account. Most that I've seen personally have not read the USPA's recommendations in the first place. That's why I'd support a rule against it. I hope my DZ adopts such a rule in 2011 since I don't think USPA will. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #49 December 17, 2010 QuoteUnfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power. There is your problem. Here what the D.Z.S.O.(our equivalent to your S&TA) says, goes. and the DZSO is answerable the the CI/CSO. (chief Instructor/Chief safety officer). With the power to ground someone from jumping and the authority to decide whether or not someone is ready or allowed to partake in a certain activity, this removes the need hold back those with aptitude with rules designed for the odd idiot that think they know better. QuoteI see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, That scratched record is seriously flawed, if you don't see a benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, you don't see a benefit to anyone jumping a camera. People like using cameras to document their skydiving, as soon as they can document their (and their buddies'), then the sooner their progression advances faster by being able to analise what they were doing. Yes you can hire, a camera guy to come and film you but everybody wants to film their jumps themselves. The benefit is being able to film their jumps, and pretty fucking obvious. Quite simple I would have thought?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #50 December 17, 2010 QuoteThere is your problem. Agreed. We wouldn't need blanket rules if we could make good decisions without them. We've proven otherwise, over and over and over. But still, are your DZSOs consistent? If someone is told they can't jump a camera or a small canopy or a wingsuit or whatever at one dropzone, can they just go to the competition that never says no? That's always been the problem when it comes to leaving decisions up to one person. A blanket rule is much easier to manage. And either way, I'd still support a rule against jumping cameras before 200 jumps. I think its more important than ever as cameras get smaller, cheaper, and in the eyes of many newbies, safer. Hard to believe there was a day when they had to regulate pull altitudes, now that so many people prefer to pull at 3,500 feet or higher. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
labrys 0 #27 December 14, 2010 QuoteHow much would it cost? Seems like I have read that some camera qualified dude will do it for the cost of their ticket and a nominal extra kick. That's really the "worst case" at most DZs I've been to. I know that at my home DZ, there are many "camera qualified" up jumpers who seek out novice jumpers to jump with and pay their own slots. They don't do it every load, but they do it a significant percentage of loads.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #28 December 14, 2010 QuoteAh, go pros... you do realize how dorky those things look right? By the way, another thing I've noticed when it comes to is that people who fast track their way through all the toys tend to fast track their way to being burnt out on the sport too. If you want to get better or, dare I say, good at anything you should be prepared to set goals that extend hundreds of jumps out. +1 Well put. They get past being a tourist. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #29 December 15, 2010 QuoteI look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse. More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent. Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera. By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera. But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier. Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits. Jump numbers have little to do with it."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #30 December 15, 2010 And you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera. Just my opinion. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #31 December 15, 2010 QuoteAnd you would have never survived to 6500 jumps if you had waited till 200? Unfortunately most people think they are competent whether or not it's true. I personally don't think anyone with under 200 jumps is competent to jump a camera. At 200, that's where the S&TA should be deciding whether or not that person is ready. 200 is a decent minimum for competent jumpers, not a point where just anybody should be strapping on a camera. Just my opinion. That is your opinion because it has been drummed into you. My View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. I am yet to see any problems with it. When do you think it is appropriate to be a coach? Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #32 December 15, 2010 QuoteWhen do you think it is appropriate to be a coach? Do you think it take more or less skill an judgment to be coaching people or filming them? Hate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #33 December 16, 2010 QuoteQuoteI look for that "recommendation" to be changed to a BSR requirement to have at least 200 jumps in the next year or so. I know I have taken a few people aside and told them to leave the cameras on the ground since they don't have the first clue about what they are doing as is and the camera is only making it worse. More rules made for idiots to hold back the competent. Here in NZ the reccomentdtion is 100 jumps for a camera. By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. A S&TA, DZSO or whatever it is called at any gven DZ should have the authority to decide who should and shouldn't jump a camera. But many of those would rather a rule to make their job easier. Some are more competent than others, and some are complete dipshits. Jump numbers have little to do with it. Rhys, Respectfully, I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron_O 0 #34 December 16, 2010 A camera is a distraction from the the very beginning to the very end of any skydive. Items may missed during a gear check because of a battery check on your camera. A lift web might be twisted but the jumper is paying more attention to the camera mount while gearing up. A handle is floating but the jumper is double checking that his go-pro is turned on on his way to the door. Get the idea??? It gets worse the further along in the skydive you go. A camera flyer must have sufficient experience to not only fly by second nature, but skydive by second nature. That comes with lots of experience!! 200 jumps is a minimum recommendation. That's a reasonable number of jumps to warrant an evaluation of one's ability to safely carry a camera on a skydive in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #35 December 16, 2010 QuoteThat is your opinion because it has been drummed into you. My View opinions is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. No ego in that statement. They are both opinions and there is no reason why yours should trump Dave's SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #36 December 16, 2010 QuoteMy View is mine because it is what I have experienced and seen many people experience. I am yet to see any problems with it. Sounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime. Your mileage obviously differs.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brucet7 0 #37 December 16, 2010 It is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ."POPS #10623; SOS #1672 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #38 December 16, 2010 Quote I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Dave Next time we're in the same room, ask to see my logbook for coaching students. It's roughly a 30% unsuccessful ratio. Unfortunately, there are examiners that "give away" the rating. I'm aware of more than a few coaches that showed up for the course, had breakfast, and left without any classwork and with zero eval jumps. Coaching and video can often go together, but flying video requires greater mental and physical skill than being a coach. I too, could agree with raising the jump # for the coach rating, particularly if USPA would have a required training program for cameras and/or required experience level. I believe camera may be a distraction whether you have 100, 200, or 5000 jumps. Having the physical and mental experience (time in sport) to deal with problems is the motivation for the recommended levels of experience. The sheer volume of this particular subject make sme think that safety is going to keep losing ground over "I wanna fly a lens" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #39 December 16, 2010 I started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc. But coaching requires you to be able to fly as needed to observe the student, remember what they did, and figure out what to debrief, without thinking about your own flying. In my opinion, you should be able strap a camera to your head and deal with those distractions before you should be jumping with students. You can be an amateur video guy, but as long as you're getting paid as a coach, you're a pro. There's no excuse for crappy coaching, but crappy video is just fine. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #40 December 16, 2010 I feel the difference is that as a coach, you don't have a coach saying "she's not doing that right, lemme angle my head to catch that on vid." It happens, and too often. And that's where the biggest difference lies. Flying as a coach may mean you're a professional beginner, but the coach process, the jumps that coaches are *supposed* to do (but often don't) are there to teach the very skills that a camera flyer needs. I do believe that coaching is a benefit to becoming a good camera flyer, *if* the coach examiner/evaluator are doing their jobs. there seem to be a few that don't give a damn because after all "It's just a coach rating."I still shake my head at a C/E who handed a wingsuiter a coach rating with no class time, no eval jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #41 December 16, 2010 >By 200 jumps I had at least 50 camera jumps. >It should come down to the skill of the person, not the number of jumps. I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive. Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training. Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #42 December 16, 2010 QuoteHate to change the subject, but 200 jumps sounds about right to me, based on my experience. Though I had more like 700 when I got my coach rating. I'd completely support upping the coach rating requirements... I think 100 is ridiculously low, and I think it's insane to let someone jump with a student that you wouldn't let jump solo with a camera. I think USPA has it wrong... bigtime. The difference is that a coach course exists. Theoretically, nobody that doesn't have the skills should get the rating. But I haven't seen anyone fail yet. Cool no need for a tangent, you get the drift. We are all allowed out differences of opinion, and we all have different rules to go by. What is considered right, comes down to the opinion and experiences of each individual."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #43 December 16, 2010 QuoteRhys, Respectfully, I couldnt disagree with you more. There is no need to rush, I dont care how good you are. You will be just as good at 200 with that much more awareness. Imagine if that wonder 100 jump guy who is so good and ready at 100, how good he will be at 200. It has nothing to do with holding back the competent, it has to do with keeping people alive. and for the record, I enforce the 200 jump BSR or Rule whatever it is called at our DZ. I do not give a rats ass how good they think they are. Fair call, but once again; I have seen many people begin camera at 100 jumps with no problems whatsoever."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #44 December 17, 2010 QuoteSounds like you don't get out and around very much if you have yet to see any problems with it. There's a whole world out here...many of us HAVE seen problems with it...directly...up close and personal...and in some cases the aftermath being NOT what one would want to see again...anywhere...at anytime. These are just words, give us some substance... Show me the idiots that you suppose ruin it for the rest. This seems like a protective attitude the hinders the growth of your people. This attitude reminds me of ; Mothers wiping and cleaning everything with antibacterial wipes and soap to keep things clean for their children. Their children get ill more often. Those that are subject to a little dirt have better immune systems... If you set the rules for the lowest common denominator, you numb those with aptitude and hinder the growth of the sport as a whole. Maybe the problem lies with having 100 jump wonders running around being coaches and S&TA's that do not care enough to know what the people at their DZ are doing. If someone is not ready, then they should not be allowed to jump camera, this could be at 500 jumps. It seems you believe that I think that everybody with 100 jumps should put a camera on, this could not be further from the truth. It really comes down to the individual."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #45 December 17, 2010 Quote I knew someone who started doing camera at 10-12 jumps. Made quite a few jumps until he got caught. He did not die. Indeed, you could stick a camera on a first jump student, and 99% of them would survive. Of course, that's true of a lot of things. You could take out their AAD, get rid of their helmet, cut the FJC to an hour, and the vast majority of new jumpers would still survive their student training. Fortunately, most instructors have higher standards than that Seriously Bill you need to grow up a little. You ridicule the system that works elsewhere absolutely fine, and try to make it all out as if It is my choice that it is this way, and try to make a stab (boarder line personal attack). This is childish and not becoming of a moderator. The rules in New Zealand have been around since well before I was jumping, and have nothing to do with me. Do not try to make this a personal thing. We don't allow people to take tandems until they have at least 1000 jumps. so our standards are higher in that respect. The USA is not 'the world' and this is an international forum, I respect that your rules are as they are, but that does not mean that rules that differ in other places are of a lower standard. Our rules are simply better. (that was a joke by the way)"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #46 December 17, 2010 QuoteI started to reply that coaching takes more mental and physical skill than camera flying, but I started thinking about when I was doing 4-way video for an intermediate team (meaning they move around the sky a whole lot). I flew my butt off, and used every ounce of focus I had to keep them in frame exactly where I wanted. Not that I always succeeded. And keeping my hands out of the frame, not turning my head to look at my altimeter, finding the best light, etc. One does not need to film 4 way to use a camera. We had to jump a camera helmet without a camera before we could put the camera in( cameras were big back then), afer a jump or 2 like that we were allowed to put the camera in... then we were only allowed to do 2 ways with them until we could keep it in frame with no problems. It is an incremental growth, and when you begin, it takes various stages before you have the competence and experience to move to the next level. If you start with a camera (solo) at 100 jumps you may be able to film 4 way by 300 jumps. if you start at 200, then you may not be able to do 4 way video until 400 jumps... You have a S&TA for a reason... USE them."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #47 December 17, 2010 QuoteIt is said that a smart person learns from their mistakes, but a wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Then there are those who know it all and won't learn from anyone. "Let him who has ears listen . . ." And then there are those with inflated egos that think that their way is the only way and anything other than what they are used to is inadequate."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #48 December 17, 2010 QuoteOne does not need to film 4 way to use a camera. That was kind of my point... anyone is allowed to shoot video of anything, no matter the quality. Coaches should be held to a higher standard, like paid video flyers. Unfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power. Recently we're seeing more and more that people can't follow recommendations on their own... canopy size, cameras, etc. Everyone thinks they're better than average, so the recommendations don't really apply to them. I see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, but we're seeing more and more of them doing it. They rarely take their own skill, currency, or judgment into account. Most that I've seen personally have not read the USPA's recommendations in the first place. That's why I'd support a rule against it. I hope my DZ adopts such a rule in 2011 since I don't think USPA will. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #49 December 17, 2010 QuoteUnfortunately in the US, S&TAs have very little power. If someone jumps a camera at 20 jumps, an S&TA doesn't really have the authority to stop them, unless the DZ chooses to give them that power. There is your problem. Here what the D.Z.S.O.(our equivalent to your S&TA) says, goes. and the DZSO is answerable the the CI/CSO. (chief Instructor/Chief safety officer). With the power to ground someone from jumping and the authority to decide whether or not someone is ready or allowed to partake in a certain activity, this removes the need hold back those with aptitude with rules designed for the odd idiot that think they know better. QuoteI see no benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, That scratched record is seriously flawed, if you don't see a benefit to people with under 200 jumps jumping cameras, you don't see a benefit to anyone jumping a camera. People like using cameras to document their skydiving, as soon as they can document their (and their buddies'), then the sooner their progression advances faster by being able to analise what they were doing. Yes you can hire, a camera guy to come and film you but everybody wants to film their jumps themselves. The benefit is being able to film their jumps, and pretty fucking obvious. Quite simple I would have thought?"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #50 December 17, 2010 QuoteThere is your problem. Agreed. We wouldn't need blanket rules if we could make good decisions without them. We've proven otherwise, over and over and over. But still, are your DZSOs consistent? If someone is told they can't jump a camera or a small canopy or a wingsuit or whatever at one dropzone, can they just go to the competition that never says no? That's always been the problem when it comes to leaving decisions up to one person. A blanket rule is much easier to manage. And either way, I'd still support a rule against jumping cameras before 200 jumps. I think its more important than ever as cameras get smaller, cheaper, and in the eyes of many newbies, safer. Hard to believe there was a day when they had to regulate pull altitudes, now that so many people prefer to pull at 3,500 feet or higher. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
