Ketia0 0 #1 January 7, 2014 Laying in bed I had an idea, and I wanted to run it by some others before I did it.... My central heat is not keeping up in my house. We have a relatively new unit that has a heat pump. The outside unit has frozen over a few times last year to the point I went outside with a heater and melted the water. I was thinking about putting an oil filled space heater in the air return right behind the air filter. I thought of this for a couple reasons. One, a oil filled heater heats slowly and is very efficient. Two, it would fit perfect in the 3' x 3' area that leads to the suction of the unit. That way when the unit kicked on it would be sucking a higher temperature air than what is in the house, thus making it work better... Downside, could this be a fire hazard? I don't think the area would get hot enough to burn the sheet rock and as long as there is constant air flow for 50% of the time it should be OK.... Should be... Ideas or thoughts?"In this game you can't predict the future. You just have to play the odds. "-JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #2 January 7, 2014 What you're thinking about doing is pre-conditioning the air as it returns to the unit. All that would do is potentially allow the main unit to run for a less amount of time. It will not change the freezing of the exterior unit as the air never leaves the house, rather the refrigeration fluid is the one going in and out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ketia0 0 #3 January 7, 2014 Right. But if the air is hotter it going into the return, than that would take less heat from the Freon. This in turn would put less of a load on the outside unit keeping it from freezing up. no?"In this game you can't predict the future. You just have to play the odds. "-JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #4 January 7, 2014 Ketia0Laying in bed I had an idea, and I wanted to run it by some others before I did it.... My central heat is not keeping up in my house. We have a relatively new unit that has a heat pump. The outside unit has frozen over a few times last year to the point I went outside with a heater and melted the water. I was thinking about putting an oil filled space heater in the air return right behind the air filter. I thought of this for a couple reasons. One, a oil filled heater heats slowly and is very efficient. Two, it would fit perfect in the 3' x 3' area that leads to the suction of the unit. That way when the unit kicked on it would be sucking a higher temperature air than what is in the house, thus making it work better... Downside, could this be a fire hazard? I don't think the area would get hot enough to burn the sheet rock and as long as there is constant air flow for 50% of the time it should be OK.... Should be... Ideas or thoughts? Sounds like you may have your pressures to low. If you have gauges, hook them up and read your pressures. Enter the nomenclature of your unit, and google will help you find the right ones.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingRhenquest 1 #5 January 7, 2014 I'd have an HVAC guy look at your system. See if your friends and neighbors can recommend a reputable one (not some jackhole who comes out, takes one look at it and suggests you replace thole thing.) If you go ahead with your plan you might want to consider one of those electric radiant heaters. Less chance for carbon monoxide and fires. Perhaps you could figure out a way to only power it on when the system is running, or below a certain temperature. We had a cast iron stove in our house when I was living in Upstate New York. That was a heaping helping of awesome sauce. You could heat the house with that thing alone if you had to.I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #6 January 7, 2014 FlyingRhenquestI'd have an HVAC guy look at your system. See if your friends and neighbors can recommend a reputable one (not some jackhole who comes out, takes one look at it and suggests you replace thole thing.) If you go ahead with your plan you might want to consider one of those electric radiant heaters. Less chance for carbon monoxide and fires. Perhaps you could figure out a way to only power it on when the system is running, or below a certain temperature. We had a cast iron stove in our house when I was living in Upstate New York. That was a heaping helping of awesome sauce. You could heat the house with that thing alone if you had to. I think he is referring to a contained oil system. So no CO worries.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #7 January 7, 2014 The heater will partially block/affect the air flow. May be an issue, may not.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 4 #8 January 7, 2014 I don't think the heater would be very effective anyways, it would have so much air blowing past it that won't be able to keep the temperature up across the coils."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #9 January 7, 2014 Yes, that would take less heat from the refrigerant (more than likely not freon if the unit is newish) inside the house, however, since the unit would run less the refrigerant would cycle less, possibly leading to more freezing. Easiest thing to do would be to follow others advice and call an HVAC guy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 767 #10 January 7, 2014 Please let us know what the insurance claims adjuster says. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #11 January 7, 2014 Ketia0 My central heat is not keeping up in my house. We have a relatively new unit that has a heat pump. The outside unit has frozen over a few times last year to the point I went outside with a heater and melted the water. As I understand them, heat pumps are less efficient when the outside temps drop too low. I thought that all the systems had back up heating coils that were used to warm the inside air during those conditions. Maybe take your space heaters and distribute to them to the coldest rooms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #12 January 7, 2014 Point 1, heat pumps suck. Point 2, have your system checked if it is freezing up. Point 3, you would want to set the heater close to the intake, not inside. As someone else posted if you put it inside there will be too much air flowing over it. Point 4, your heat pump system should have an electric element backup, but the experience we had with a heat pump was the house never really felt warm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #13 January 7, 2014 Heat pumps are a compromise. You're essentially using one piece of equipment to do two separate jobs: heating and cooling. In a commercial application you have chillers and you have boilers, the former to take care of the cooling, the latter to deal with heating. The heat pump is best for moderate climates without the extremes. If you're in the deep south it will never get cold enough, if you're in the North it will never get warm enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #14 January 7, 2014 hokierowerHeat pumps are a compromise. You're essentially using one piece of equipment to do two separate jobs: heating and cooling. In a commercial application you have chillers and you have boilers, the former to take care of the cooling, the latter to deal with heating. The heat pump is best for moderate climates without the extremes. If you're in the deep south it will never get cold enough, if you're in the North it will never get warm enough. Heat pumps are getting popular up here in the Seattle Pacific NW, owing to our mild climate. I'm planning to get AC in our new house, 2000 sq. ft. rambler, and was wondering if I should drop the extra dough for a heat pump. Sounds like just going with AC and keeping the gas heat might be the smart move? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #15 January 7, 2014 I'm no expert but the couple of folks I knew that had ground source heat pump were happy. Much more expensive and have to be able to drill. Not susceptible to air temp variation. My sister had a heat pump and what I hated was you got 72 degree air blowing out of the thing. With wind chill it felt like cold air blowing. Best bet might be to do a cost analysis on electricity versus gas.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ketia0 0 #16 January 7, 2014 We don't have option for gas "In this game you can't predict the future. You just have to play the odds. "-JohnMitchell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #17 January 7, 2014 councilman24 I'm no expert but the couple of folks I knew that had ground source heat pump were happy. Much more expensive and have to be able to drill. Yep, the ground loop is definitely the Cadillac of systems, plenty of heat available in a very stable environment year round. A coworker had that done on his 5 acre property with 300' of trenching. Don't know if my 1/4 acre suburban lot would support that. Also, with gas available, the cost payback schedule could be many, many decades. Don't know if I'll be here that long. I'll have to crunch some numbers, but regular A/C and gas heat might be my best solution. K.I.S.S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,496 #18 January 7, 2014 hokierowerHeat pumps are a compromise. You're essentially using one piece of equipment to do two separate jobs: heating and cooling. In a commercial application you have chillers and you have boilers, the former to take care of the cooling, the latter to deal with heating. The heat pump is best for moderate climates without the extremes. If you're in the deep south it will never get cold enough, if you're in the North it will never get warm enough. Well, all air conditioning is really a heat pump, so is a refrigerator. It concentrates the heat through compression, dissipates that heat through a heat exchanger (radiator) and then cools through expansion and another heat exchanger. The "heat pump" that is being talked about here is simply a reversible version of that. Think what would happen if you installed a house A/C with the outside unit inside and vice versa. The biggest problem with those is a steady reservoir to dump heat into or pull it out of. That's why the "geothermal" setups are as efficient as they are. Below frost level, the ground is a pretty steady temp. The unit can be optimized to that temp and it runs very well. Installation is expensive and needs an appropriate site, but it's a very efficient system. A large body of water (lake or river that doesn't freeze) is also a good "heat reservoir," but there are often environmental rules that prevent installation. They consider the heat "pollution." I'm not looking to get into the "good or bad" argument over that, just noting it as a fact. The problem the OP is running up against is that his system isn't versatile enough to pull heat out of the air at colder temps. It may be an overall system flaw (it just won't work at those temps) or there may be a problem with the system (have an HVAC guy look at it). I'd be very leery of installing anything inside the ductwork. It's going to screw up the airflow all the time, and the gains when it's really cold are probably not going to be worth the loss. Check to see if there's an auto-defrost system available for the outside coils, make sure everything is working as it should, and get some electric space heaters."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #19 January 7, 2014 councilman24 My sister had a heat pump and what I hated was you got 72 degree air blowing out of the thing. With wind chill it felt like cold air blowing. Best bet might be to do a cost analysis on electricity versus gas. This is a design feature of heat pumps. Most heating systems, if you set the heat at, say, 65* is the winter, will heat the air to 115* and send it out into the house at that temp. A heat pump will only heat it to 90*. This is part of where the efficiency comes from. They will never feel as warm as other heating systems. They are also very poor at using temperature adjustment for efficiency savings. You can set your temp down to 60* during the day when you are at work but if you put it back up to 65* when you get home, well, the inefficient auxiliary heat source is usually set to kick in when the temp. differential (setting vs. actual) exceeds 3*, and you will usually lose more by using the aux. heat than you saved all day. This can be overcome to some extent by a good programmable thermostat. Freezing within the system almost surely means there is a problem somewhere within the system as it is not generally a response to the atmosphere being too cold. In my limited experience it usually means the refrigerant is low although I am sure there can be other problems that would cause freezing."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #20 January 8, 2014 hokierower Yes, that would take less heat from the refrigerant (more than likely not freon if the unit is newish) inside the house, however, since the unit would run less the refrigerant would cycle less, possibly leading to more freezing. Easiest thing to do would be to follow others advice and call an HVAC guy. You could easily install emergency heat, which is an additional resistance coil to your unit. Or even easier to call an AC guy. But I'm cheap and love doing and fixing.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuckyMcSwervy 0 #21 January 8, 2014 How the hell do so many of you guys know so much about this subject??Always be kinder than you feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #22 January 8, 2014 LuckyMcSwervyHow the hell do so many of you guys know so much about this subject?? I manage the maintenance for a company's properties (60 Apts, 30 Town Homes, 4 Retail Centers, 3 Mini Storages) and have been / Still am a self employed General Contractor, and work as a Project Manager/Superintendent for the same company that I manage the maintenance for.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 207 #23 January 8, 2014 LuckyMcSwervyHow the hell do so many of you guys know so much about this subject?? I was just thinking that as I scrolled into your post.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LuckyMcSwervy 0 #24 January 8, 2014 turtlespeed ***How the hell do so many of you guys know so much about this subject?? I manage the maintenance for a company's properties (60 Apts, 30 Town Homes, 4 Retail Centers, 3 Mini Storages) and have been / Still am a self employed General Contractor, and work as a Project Manager/Superintendent for the same company that I manage the maintenance for. I see! No wonder you know so much on the subject! Always be kinder than you feel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #25 January 8, 2014 I'm surprised the system wasn't built with emergency heat. OP: most heat pumps have at least the option of electric heat that kicks in when there is not enough heat in the atmosphere for a heat pump to keep up with demand. You can probably get a HVAC guy to install the component that was originally designed for your unit. Or, if you are handy, a local supplier could probably get the unit for you. GSHP would have prevented this problem. Wish it would catch on.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
