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riggerrob

imposter on Remembrance Day?

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An imposter recently wore a military uniform to Remembrance Day ceremonies in Canada. He dressed in the uniform of a pathfinder from the Royal Canadian Regiment (infantry). The imposter was "outed" because of several anomalies with his uniform. He claimed that he bought the uniform on e-bay and meant no harm. His wife was too embarrassed to talk with the press.
Friday he surrendered to civilian police on multiple criminal charges.

How do you think he should be handled?

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riggerrob

How do you think he should be handled?



As a person with a mental illness.

I was introduced to this sort of thing fairly (not this exact form but something like it) early in life and I believe it's a form Münchausen syndrome. Just like the person who does it for fictitious medical reasons, some people lack something in their lives and they glom on to all sort of weird ideas to insert themselves into history. I believe it also explains a lot of UFO abductees.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Well I do not know the laws in Canada. But here in the USA our courts have decided that is an individuals right to be able to lie about one's military service. Having many vet"s in my family that did fight in WW2, Korea, Vietnam. And then my small service of protecting Iraqi oil tankers from Iran in the early eighties.
My views would be different then our courts and being ex Navy. I say keelhaul the bastard on an aircraft carrier.
Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

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quade


As a person with a mental illness.

You are a truly compassionate person. :)
That's a tough one for me, knowing so many who've served and a few who gave all. I guess I would want to know what the person was trying to gain, such a position, benefits, donations, etc. Make the punishment fit the crime.

I don't know if I could classify narcissism as a mental illness.

Keelhauling does sound kinda appropriate. [:/]

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ryoder

***...they glom on to all sort of weird ideas to insert themselves into history.


I know just what you mean.;)

Well, sort of. ;)

When I was a teenager (35ish years ago) I was "introduced" to a person who believed she was one of the original 1955 Mouseketeers. What I found fascinating was the "lie" was so transparent, so easily disprovable, yet the person really did believe it to be true.

It's one of those weird things that I keep running into in my life.

I do have a bit of compassion for these people. I think there is something missing from their lives which flips on a little switch in their brains and gets fed by the resulting attention much like Münchausen and Münchausen by proxy.

The other alternative is to assume they're psychopaths out to con the world and profit from it, but I met far more of the other kind.

I guess my "test" is whether or not they're trying to make a profit off it.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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quade

When I was a teenager (35ish years ago) I was "introduced" to a person who believed she was one of the original 1955 Mouseketeers. What I found fascinating was the "lie" was so transparent, so easily disprovable, yet the person really did believe it to be true.



It was a few years prior to that I met one when I was in my teens; He claimed to have been a Vietnam POW; He sort of showed up in our circle of acquaintances; I got suspicious but didn't have a good way to disprove it, until I got the idea to drive to the nearest town that had a recruiting office.

Indeed, they had a list of the POW's that had been released, and his name was not in there.
But they expressed a lot of interest in meeting him!:D

Next time he showed up and started talking about his POW experience, I cut him off and told him what I had learned. He was speechless. We never saw him again.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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There was just an article on Military.com about this in the U.S. The Supreme Court ruled that the law making it illegal to wear the uniform/medals was a violation of free speech. So the law was modified to make it illegal to do so for monetary gain to comply with the court ruling. At least it's something.

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riggerrob

Impersonating a wounded vet - in order to gain medical benefits - definitely counts as criminal.
Mind you, if the imposter has to stoop to that level, maybe he is crazy enough to deserve medical help ... but at a civilian hospital.



http://guardianofvalor.com/

These guys do a hell of a job bringing posers to light and collecting evidence for their trials.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I tend to not worry about the results of internet polls, rather the process of law:

"Falsely impersonating a Canadian Armed Forces member is an issue to be taken seriously and is covered under Section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada."- Defence Department spokesperson

(source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/franck-gervais-faces-charges-after-impersonating-soldier-at-remembrance-day-ceremony-1.2836655)

And further,

On Sunday, Ottawa Police said they had laid charges against Gervais, including two offences of personating a public officer, unlawful use of a military uniform, and unlawful use of military decorations.

Officials say he was charged and released on Saturday on a recognizance.


(source: http://www.am980.ca/2014/11/16/impersonating-soldier-ottawa/)

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For me; it goes to intent.

We have "Posers" and "re-enactors."

There are several groups in the US that put on WWI & II reenactments and on Veterans Day (your Remembrance Day); it's not unusual to see those re-enactors wear their uniforms to show respect for those who went before us. Including those who simulate the WWII Pathfinder units.

Now if you see a 30,40, 50 year old guy wearing a WWII Pathfinder uniform; its not a stretch to know their intent. However, if one is wearing the uniform of something between Vietnam and now; but their uniform and/or patches are not accurate; it's safe to say they're posers.

And, on a final note, there are those like me who served and wear the uniform of their day (properly) as a Veteran on Veterans day. Some wear only the blouse with their rank & units, some put their ribbons on the blouse,etc.

As for his "punishment," he was arrested and now it's up to your courts to decide.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Just based on what you wrote (I didn't open the news link on the arrest), it seems to me that he just thought wearing a uniform was a festive way to show appreciation. Sounds like an uninformed moron to me. If his wife was so embarrassed, why didn't she tell him he shouldn't wear the uniform?

If this is the case, I voted for the long walk. Spend time with those who have earned the uniform, during a road march with gear, while listening to them recount their stories and their careers. The cure for ignorance is education. :D This seems like the appropriate lesson for this particular brand of ignorance.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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TriGirl


If this is the case, I voted for the long walk. Spend time with those who have earned the uniform, during a road march with gear, while listening to them recount their stories and their careers.



With the backup being? :P

Rucks aren't much fun, and I know plenty of people that decided they had walked far enough, including our old battalion CSM. (he only did 25 miles while most of us did the full 50)
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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I would say this thread advocates a (subtle, passive) type of vigilante attitude that I wouldn't want to support (actually, it's just a means to say "I'm outraged" by talking tough about how one wished they could punish total strangers)

If he wasn't trying to fraud out any benefits or anything else - then no real action.

It's the SERVICE that matters. He didn't serve, so he didn't gain anything real

As for insult - I doubt it's the wearing of the uniform that matters, it's what he tried to do with it that matters.

This sounds simply like a dumbass that wanted a little attention. Or best case, a misguided attempt to show appreciation for those that served.

(if he tried to fraud a benefit or so, then I would say punished under the existing laws on the books as written). If someone bought him a meal? I'd want him to find that person, apologize and refund him.

what were the criminal charges? I'll vote when I hear those


Quote

Aphid and few others expressed this sentiment - I agree - "I tend to not worry about the results of internet polls, rather the process of law: "



...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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theonlyski

***
If this is the case, I voted for the long walk. Spend time with those who have earned the uniform, during a road march with gear, while listening to them recount their stories and their careers.



With the backup being? :P

Rucks aren't much fun, and I know plenty of people that decided they had walked far enough, including our old battalion CSM. (he only did 25 miles while most of us did the full 50)

Next time they go, send him along.
See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

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Unless he obtained or was attempting to obtain some tangible benefit through this fraud, then off scott free.

If he did in fact obtain or attempt to obtain some tangible benefit through this fraud, then it should be punished similarly to any similar theft of services through fraud.

I'd feel very very differently--advocating far harsher treatment--if he put innocent lives at risk. But I doubt that was the case at a Remembrance Day event.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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Actually I don't have a big problem with one of the other options listed--spending time with real Pathfinders. It's just that a permanent criminal record doesn't seem to quite fit the circumstances unless he caused some tangible damage.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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Section 419 of the Criminal Code of Canada makes it illegal to falsely impersonate a member of the Canadian Forces by wearing a uniform and displaying badges, medals, ribbons, chevrons and other decorations they did not earn in service performed in war.

419. Unlawful use of military uniforms or certificates
419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,
(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,
(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,
(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or
(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,
is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

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www.geronimoskydiving.com

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gunpaq

uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor



Therein lies the rub. It sounds like it wasn't sufficiently similar to actually fool anyone.
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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But I get your point. In any event isn't summary conviction a relatively minor offense in Canada? Not a cat-of-nine-tails scenario?
"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

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jimjumper

There was just an article on Military.com about this in the U.S. The Supreme Court ruled that the law making it illegal to wear the uniform/medals was a violation of free speech. So the law was modified to make it illegal to do so for monetary gain to comply with the court ruling. At least it's something.

That's the way it ought to be in a truly free society. You're free to be an absolute A$$hat, as long as you don't steal. [:/]

Freedom of speech requires that you sometimes endure what you find truly offensive. That's one of the prices we pay.

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JohnMitchell

***There was just an article on Military.com about this in the U.S. The Supreme Court ruled that the law making it illegal to wear the uniform/medals was a violation of free speech. So the law was modified to make it illegal to do so for monetary gain to comply with the court ruling. At least it's something.

That's the way it ought to be in a truly free society. You're free to be an absolute A$$hat, as long as you don't steal. [:/]

Freedom of speech requires that you sometimes endure what you find truly offensive. That's one of the prices we pay.

This.

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"South" of you, we call it "Stolen Valor" and it is illegal down here whether or not the offender is mentally ill.
The greatest offense of these dirtbags is to those KIA'd giving as Mr. Lincoln would say, "The last full measure of devotion." They earned NOTHING of what they are wearing. They never endured the training and they never served one day in an operational status.
Simply put, they're frauds down here and frauds up there!

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