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skydude2000

Dog Adoption

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DanG


And pit bulls areCAN BE great dogs if they are properly trained (like any dog should be). If they are abused and taught to be viscious, then that's what they'll be. The statistics on pit bull bites are highly skewed by the typical type of asshole that wants a pit bull because he thinks it makes him more manly. The idea that pit bulls will eventually turn on their owners is BS. Back in the day (100 years ago) pit bulls were known as the "nanny dog" because they were great with kids. The pit bull used to be the desired family pet in the US. The popularity of dog fighting changed that. We have a pit bull, and he loves kids. Michael Vick's pit bulls, probably not so much. It's all about the environment. That being said, if having a pit bull makes you nervous, then don't get one. Neither you or the dog will be happy.



FIFY :)
Pit Bulls are the current "Bad Dog" breed. I've seen it go from German Shepherds to Dobermans to Rottweilers to Pit Bulls. As was said, idiots who think it's "cool" to have a vicious dog gravitate towards them and the reputation takes off in a vicious cycle (pun intended).

Bad owners are responsible for bad dog behavior. Period.

I will agree that Pits have the potential to be very dangerous. They are the largest of the "terriers." Those are mostly the "little yap dogs," but were originally bred to be vermin control. They were specifically bred to chase, catch & kill rats and other vermin. It's in their nature to chase & attack stuff that moves fast. When it's a 10 lb Yorkie, no big deal. When it's an 80 lb Pit, then it can be a problem.

But, as was said above, they have been considered ideal "family dogs" in the past. They can be loyal, gentle and loving. IF THEY ARE PROPERLY TRAINED.

It doesn't require an "expert," but it does require some knowledge. Remember Ceaser, the "Dog Whisperer"? He "rehabilitated dogs and trained owners."

Dogs are built to learn from us. It's in their evolution. Millions of years of it have put into them the trait to learn what we teach them. And they do.
They will learn from everything we do. Just like kids.
The owner has to make sure they are teaching the dogs what the owner wants, not what they don't want.

Because, just like kids, they will learn bad behavior as easily as good.

My younger sister has 2 Pits. Both shelter dogs. Both are great family dogs (2 younger kids in the house), both put up with several cats in the house (my sister is involved with a shelter, so she also brings in foster cats). One tolerates the cats, the other just loves them. Plays with them, they groom him (he loves to have his ears licked). But, they are dogs, and they are territorial. They will bark at dogs in front of the house, and have taken down the curtains a time or two (seeing dogs going by through the window).

If the OP is planning on getting a dog, get some owner training. Many (most?) shelters offer it, or can recommend a place for it.
Most of the time, "obedience training" is as much for the owner as the dog.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I think it all comes down to why you want to get a dog. Is it for basic companionship while you're vegging on the couch watching TV, or is it a running buddy you can do 10k runs with? What will you do with the dog when you're off jumping? If you're gone a lot, you need to get a dog that is low energy and can tolerate being alone. If you're very active and want a dog to run and play with you all the time, but you're also gone a lot, then you will likely have a problem with noise, chewing, or bad behavior.

Dogs are like people. Some of them just wanna sit on the couch and chill, others want to do ultra-marathons. You wouldn't get a couch potato girlfriend and take her rock climbing every weekend, just like you wouldn't date a competitive volleyball player and get mad when she doesn't want to play CoD for ten hours. Don't ask the equivalent of your dog.

- Dan G

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BIGUN

***I'd find a better source than "dogsbite.org". Not exactly neutral.

Even taking the statistics at face value (which I'll address below) they can't discriminate what caused the dog to bite. Nat (and apparently you) claim that there is something in the dog's genes that makes them more likely to bite. You can't prove that with a statistic that says they bite more often. I can equally claim that they bite more often because their owners are less responsible on average, and more likely to encourage aggressive behavior.

As far as the staistics go, they are also questionable. Every time there is an aggresive dog in the news, it is likely to be reported as a pit bull. That doesn't mean that it is. As an example, there was a viral video last year of a cat saving a toddler from a dog attack. The dog was widely repprted as a pit bull, even though on the video it was clearly not.

Anyway,like I said, if an owner doesn't want a pit bull (or wants one for the wrong reasons) then they shouldn't get one. They can be very loving and friendly dogs, but they are not for everyone.



You asked to cite a source, which I did
You don't like that source because you don't agree with it.
Then, you make it my responsibility to find another source.

Did you even read the fatalities report... kinda hard to dispute the fact of death by
Tell you what, unless you find a source that disputes the facts I presented; I'll let my source stand.

Dogsbite.org is THE anti pitbull site. Not neutral by a long shot. Its like quoting Citizens for Quiet Skies for skydiving related issues. Direct quote form their website: "DogsBite.org is a public education website about dangerous dog breeds, chiefly pit bulls."

This is a better group and a look at causes of dog attacks: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dogbites/dog-bite-related-fatalities/

I agree that heading to the local shelter is the best bet. Check the city and SPCA shelters. You would be amazed at the wonderful dogs that have been there for months. Spend some time interacting with the dogs, let the personalities come out. Some may have been there long enough that they have shut down.

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PS I own two pits. They are sofa queens, they look at humans as a source of food, entertainment, and love. I am cautious with my dogs not because of what they may do, but people's reaction to them. I also work to educate people about the breed and how good they are.... and how awful some people can be.
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You asked to cite a source, which I did
You don't like that source because you don't agree with it.
Then, you make it my responsibility to find another source.



You want another source? Here's one: http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dog-legislation/breed-specific-legislation-bsl-faq/#4

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Q: Aren't certain breeds of dogs more likely to injure or bite than others?

A: There is no evidence from the controlled study of dog bites that one kind of dog is more likely to bite a human being than another kind of dog. A recent AVMA survey covering 40 years and two continents concluded that no group of dogs should be considered disproportionately dangerous.[1] Additionally, in a recent multifactorial study published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association on the exceptionally rare events of dog bite-related fatalities, the researchers identified a striking co-occurrence of multiple, controllable factors in these cases.[2] Breed was not identified as a factor.



Quote

Did you even read the fatalities report... kinda hard to dispute the fact of death by
Tell you what, unless you find a source that disputes the facts I presented; I'll let my source stand.



You clearly didn't read what I wrote. I don't dispute that large breed dogs, including pit bulls, are more likely to be involved in a bite fatality. You're decided to ascribe that statistic to the dog and the dog alone. I was trying to point out that the owner is more likely the cause of the bad behavior, rather than the genetics of the dog.

- Dan G

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DanG

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... they look at humans as a source of food...



You should edit that. dogbites.org will quote that out of context.;)


They need me alive. Only I and my fellow humans can work the magical food dispensing cabinet and keep them fed. And rub their bellies, and sit on the floor while they nap on the couch.;)

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They need me alive. Only I and my fellow humans can work the magical food dispensing cabinet and keep them fed. And rub their bellies, and sit on the floor while they nap on the couch.



I know exactly how that works.

- Dan G

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topdocker



They need me alive. Only I and my fellow humans can work the magical food dispensing cabinet and keep them fed. And rub their bellies, and sit on the floor while they nap on the couch.;)

top



I love this explanation :)
You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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topdocker


...I agree that heading to the local shelter is the best bet. Check the city and SPCA shelters. You would be amazed at the wonderful dogs that have been there for months. Spend some time interacting with the dogs, let the personalities come out. Some may have been there long enough that they have shut down...



^This. Big time.

One suggestion is to volunteer at your local shelter. They almost certainly can use help.
They usually give free training on how to properly handle the dogs.
It would give you an opportunity to interact with a lot of different dogs, and different types of dogs.
Breed traits are generalities. Each dog has his or her own personality. It isn't always easy to figure that out in a short visit.

And it's really easy to do. Walk in, go up to the desk and ask "How do I volunteer?"
Rules/requirements vary, usually there's an application and orientation process (to make sure you aren't an "animal offender" - see Billy's Sick & Twisted thread for a good example). The one near me requires 25 hours of "other" work and a class before you can become a dog walker. But it's a lot of fun and really rewarding.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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topdocker

***

Quote

... they look at humans as a source of food...



You should edit that. dogbites.org will quote that out of context.;)


They need me alive. Only I and my fellow humans can work the magical food dispensing cabinet and keep them fed. And rub their bellies, and sit on the floor while they nap on the couch.;)***How do your goats get along with your dogs ?
Life is short ... jump often.

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I have a wonderful goofy sweet Boxer mix that we got at a pound as a puppy. I also have Jack Russell Terrier. Inside, they usually chill cuz they know not to be too hyper, but will play fetch for as long as you are willing to tire them out. As a note about Pitbulls, my sweet Boxer, who at home lets the Jack Russell be alpha, was being a silly pup playing with a golden at the Dog Park, when a pit came tearing out of no where from the far end and attacked unto my Boxer's neck. For no reason. Unprovoked. I've got family that swear about the sweetness of Pits, But that episode firmly
changed my opinion for sure. :-(

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DanG

Even taking the statistics at face value (which I'll address below) they can't discriminate what caused the dog to bite. Nat (and apparently you) claim that there is something in the dog's genes that makes them more likely to bite. You can't prove that with a statistic that says they bite more often. I can equally claim that they bite more often because their owners are less responsible on average, and more likely to encourage aggressive behavior.



This doesn't even make sense. I didn't say there was something in a pit bull's genes that makes them more likely to bite. I said that breed is known for being statistically more likely to have unprovoked outbursts of aggression. Which is a fact. I did not speculate as to *why* this is the case because I learnt that golden rule of numbers a long time ago: correlation does not imply causation.

So whilst the numbers are statistically significant, I did not go one step further and claim I knew the *reason* behind those numbers. That would be presumptuous and stupid of me. As you said, we could just as easily speculate that *bad owners* are responsible for this increased aggression... But as you say so yourself, this line of argument is just based on opinions.

Anyone who has a lot of experience with purebreds will tell you that each breed has "typical" traits proper to that breed (ie: hunting, herding, guarding, fetching, digging, et cetera). This should not be so surprising as it comes from years and years and years of selection... Like humans, however, each dog is an individual. So whilst most labs may be intelligent, some labs can be dumb as anything. Now I stand by my original statement about responsible pet ownership. It's the whole nature vs nurture debate... Without opening *that* can of worms, suffice it to say that a responsible owner can be a huge influence on the dog's behaviour. So again, I am NOT anti pit-bulls (or rottweilers) at all but I *do* think they are not for everyone.

As to where I got my info: from a breeder who specialises in pit-bulls and rottweilers. Funnily enough, she got into breeding these dogs because she grew up with 2 dobermans and felt they didn't deserve their bad reputation. She thought the same about pits and rottweilers and before she got into breeding she did tons of research on them. She loves them but even she acknowledges that sometimes a great owner is not enough. She ironically turns away a lot of people who want her puppies because she has had experience of her dogs ending up in shelters due to aggression (and, in her opinion, quite likely in large part due to the owner not having enough experience with dogs). She now vets much more carefully. She specifically does not sell her puppies to people who have - or plan to have - children.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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DanG

I think it all comes down to why you want to get a dog. Is it for basic companionship while you're vegging on the couch watching TV, or is it a running buddy you can do 10k runs with? What will you do with the dog when you're off jumping? If you're gone a lot, you need to get a dog that is low energy and can tolerate being alone. If you're very active and want a dog to run and play with you all the time, but you're also gone a lot, then you will likely have a problem with noise, chewing, or bad behavior.

Dogs are like people. Some of them just wanna sit on the couch and chill, others want to do ultra-marathons. You wouldn't get a couch potato girlfriend and take her rock climbing every weekend, just like you wouldn't date a competitive volleyball player and get mad when she doesn't want to play CoD for ten hours. Don't ask the equivalent of your dog.



+1

Also, with a 40 minute commute each way in addition to an 8 hour work day, I would honestly advise you not to adopt a dog. That is unless you are willing to take the dog to dog day care or hire a dog walker to let the dog out for an hour or so. You are asking your furry friend to hold urine for nearly 10 hours a day. I would invite you to consume liquids throughout the day and try not pissing for 10 hours. Unless you do not intend to leave water out which is equally cruel. In these 9-10 hour work days (adding in commute time to your 7.5-8 hours) how do you intend to house train or crate train? It is possible but it is going to take much longer as well. I also an a huge propenent of obidience school. Germany is a very dog friendly environment (dogs are welcome in most restaurants, sometimes more than small children) but something they all have in common is how well behaved they are in public. I do not know if it is a law but speaking in generalities, Germans will dedicate time to Hundeschule (Dog School/Obedience training) to ensure their dogs are well behaved in public venues. I highly recommend regular obedience training to any new pet owner. Start early! Marker training is fantastic.

Adopting a dog is way more than just having a smiling face to come home to at the end of the day and scratch behind the ears, teach a few tricks and use to pick up Sky Queens. There is a significant time and monetary investment as well.

I think that if you are asking for suggestions on breeds based on behavior, hair/shedding, etc. then you have not done enough research/thinking up front on the impact to your life. Maybe you have and it just does not come through on your post. Not to shoot down your dreams of dog ownership but serious consideration should be put into what you are getting yourself into over the next 8-12 years.

@ Nat - I think our perceptions on the tendencies of certain breeds to bite are lead to by poor breeding standards from puppy mills looking to capitalize on popular breeds of dogs and popularity or particular breeds. 10-15 years ago it was German Shepherds and Dobermans (both which already have protective instincts) and now it is pitbulls. Shitty breeders inbreeding the same pack over and over to meet demand by families who are not always prepared to provide dogs with the attention they need (based on the breed) are a bad combination. Breeding dogs is much more than putting a bitch in heat with a stud and letting them go at it. There are sciences and methods to it based on natural order in order to promote healthy breeding, limit defects in the gene pool, prevent mental instability, etc. I am not an expert by any means, but like you I have friends that breed dogs for a living and to listen to them pontificate on the complexities of good dog breeding (which also involves vetting potential adoption parents) is fascinating.

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Based on the experience of my friend adopting two rescue dogs, I would recommend the following.

Don't worry about getting a particular breed. Just go the a nearby shelter and ask if you can "foster" a dog for a while. By fostering, you will be helping a dog get ready for being adopted and at the same time learn if "this" dog, or "any" dog is right for you and your current situation.

In the case of my friend, she originally fostered two dogs that were in the shelter for over a year. Each had problems. One was old and deaf, and the other was abused by it's previous owner. For the first two weeks - the abused dog - hid under the bed and wouldn't let you touch it. She changed her home so the dogs would have a nice sunny area to play in while she was away (at her 8 hour a day job with a 40 min commute) and got training for the dogs. Occasionally she would get a dog walker, or asked a neighbor with young kids to walk the dogs. I would watch them when I could.

It took a while, but the abused dog eventually blossomed into a wonderful creature that would jump into your lap almost wagging its tail off, when greeting you and became much better around strangers.

When the day came to take the dogs to an "adoption" event she couldn't do it. They were part of her family, so she adopted those dogs - which wasn't her original intent. The decision to adopt these particular dogs didn't happen at once, it happened gradually over about 6 months. This was a benefit of fostering, it allowed her to discover if keeping the dogs was right for her.

If you area allows you to foster rescue dog(s), I think that is the best way to find out if it will work for you too.

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Thanks for providing facts about pitbulls.

Just getting tired of hearing people bad-mouthing pitbulls. I have one pitbull and this dog is so friendly that he would beg a robber to be pet.

Like other said, there are no bad dogs, only bad owners. When I was younger, I unknowingly entered the dog-fighting event with former buddy of mine. Trust me, I am terrified of those "TRAINED" dogs. I also have seen a neighbour dog, which the owner claimed to be rehabilitated from the Michael Vick's infamous ring. This dog is not even a pitbull, but definitely a downright, terrifying dog. Those trained dogs look ready to destroy anything in sight if you provoke them. And you probably can't stop them after you provoke them.

With that being said, please do research before you jump to conclusion about pitbull or the facts behind those dogs attacks.

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