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peanut4040

Lets think about it.

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Im not happy with what happened with the "coach rating". many capitalistic dzo's are simply using it to make money- not take care of students. In my pappys words " fleecing the sheep" The students these DZO's are producing are substandard.

Any D licenced skydiver should be able to jump students off status. Not answer to a B-License "coach"... How do we do away with the coach rating.? USPA failed in trying to correct a problem we had. It was a good idea, and WE all backed it. --- We backed it, because WE all wanted to take care of the babies. But the babies are not being taken care of.
Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

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peanut4040

Im not happy with what happened with the "coach rating". many capitalistic dzo's are simply using it to make money- not take care of students. In my pappys words " fleecing the sheep" The students these DZO's are producing are substandard.

Any D licenced skydiver should be able to jump students off status. Not answer to a B-License "coach"... How do we do away with the coach rating.? USPA failed in trying to correct a problem we had. It was a good idea, and WE all backed it. ---

I'm glad you shared your concerns. It takes more than a B license, right, 100 jumps to be a coach. That's still not a lot to be training someone else, but it's a start. I agree with you that a 500 jump D license holder probably has more to share.

But I haven't seen the program be a failure yet. Every DZO should know the capabilities of each of their coaches. Even if they have the ticket, you shouldn't let the substandard ones work with students until they improve. Hopefully all DZOs can agree with that statement. I know that TI and AFF-Is are often in short supply. Is there such a shortage of coaches that anyone can get work?

It takes time and effort to really develop your instructional capabilities. But you can coach safely while you learn to become more effective. Hopefully young coaches and instructors can find good mentors along the way, like I was fortunate to have. What specific problems have you seen?

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The coach rating is good for one thing. "Making money". The DZOs make money,,,,, the coaches make money, AND USPA makes money.

John, get out there and pick up a few of these babies right after they get their A license. Granted, some of the drop zones are producing quality. But overall. The system is broken.
Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

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peanut4040

The coach rating is good for one thing. "Making money". The DZOs make money,,,,, the coaches make money, AND USPA makes money.

John, get out there and pick up a few of these babies right after they get their A license. Granted, some of the drop zones are producing quality. But overall. The system is broken.

At our DZ, it's an extra $20 to the novice to have a coach jump with them. And the coach makes $20. So basically our DZ is giving a free slot to the coach to jump with the novice. I'd say it's not much of a money maker for the DZO.

I've also jumped with novices/low-timers for free in the past, spending my own dime. But those jumps are rarer these days due to instructing AND fun jumping with my friends on the weekends. But on a slow day during the week it's more likely to happen. :)
I'd like to hear more people's thoughts on this subject. I have no idea what coach rates are like at other DZs.

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When I had my coach rating I rarely got paid to jump with students. I never asked a student to pay for anything and the only time they did was when they went to manifest before coming to talk to me first. I got a lot of free coaching and help when I was a new skydiver and it just seemed right to pay it forward. Most of the students I jumped with showed their appreciation by picking me up some food when they went to get lunch or bringing me an extra Gatorade.
"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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I remember when "coach" jumps became mandatory at my old DZ back in the late 90's. After AFF, students were required to do 5 coach jumps with an experienced jumper.

Our coaches were usually older D-licensed jumpers with quite a few years/jumps in the sport. We were all volunteers and were paid $5 plus the jump. It was a great way to introduce recent AFF grads to the general jumping population at the DZ. An invite to the bonfire was standard practice and brought them into the fold. It was more mentoring than coaching.

I'm with peanut4040 on this one. I'm not questioning the skill level but rather the overall time/wisdom in the sport. Retaining new jumpers at this critical stage might be better served by allowing ST&A's to waive the coach requirement on a case by case basis based on experience rather than a "coach" ticket.

Just a thought. Any other ideas?
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CSpenceFLY

USPA failed in trying to correct a problem we didn't have.

Fixed it for you.
The coach rating is the worst thing to happen to the sport since I have been jumping.


I have a lot of respect for your opinion, so I'm very interested to hear what you don't like about the program. Feel free to PM if you don't want to air it out here.

I have to admit I don't have a position on this. That's why I'm enjoying this input from both sides. We certainly have coach rated people working at our DZ. I don't know if 100 jumps= expertise anymore. I do know I was allowed to handle static line students at that experience level (with training, of course).

I've got the usual instructor ratings, so occasionally I work as a coach, but I always try to give them their money's worth. And like I said, our particular DZ is not making big $$$ with coach jumps.

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zoobrothertom


Retaining new jumpers at this critical stage might be better served by allowing ST&A's to waive the coach requirement on a case by case basis based on experience rather than a "coach" ticket.

I know one woman with an expired instructor's ticket and 30 years experience that occasionally works as a coach without the rating. She does a great job for the students. I also recently worked as an evaluator for a coach course. The two candidates I jumped with did very well. I've flunked candidates before, too.

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Money is what went wrong John. We old guys just like you and me , saw a "need" for the babies that "we" could not meet.. In our hippie skydiver mentality--- we thought up this great "coach" idea. We implemented the idea. Its our fault. Now, I don't know if we can correct it.
Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

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peanut4040

Money is what went wrong John.

It's a big $$$ sport now, isn't it? My first rig was a paracommander in a military surplus container, $140. FJC was $30, class included. These days AFF jumps run close to $200 each and gear will set you back $5k, easily. Tunnel time, coaches, outside video. Great way to learn quickly, but it'll drain the wallet quickly.

I guess once again I have to say my home DZ has very reasonable coach rates, basically a free slot on the plane. My DZOs are skydivers at heart, though. Makes me happy. B|

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peanut4040

many capitalistic dzo's are simply using it to make money- not take care of students. In my pappys words " fleecing the sheep".



This is something that needs to be guarded against with every new mandatory block of training.

It's not just coach ratings and jumps, it can happen with canopy instruction, wingsuit instruction or new notions like camera ratings that a few self-promoting folks like to push for.

It's attractive to make and impose rules and mandatory training and always looks like taking the high ground, but the larger impact on the sport needs to be weighed in the balance.

Before anyone says I'm anti-training I went on more than one canopy control course before it was mandatory or a sign-off and I'd be grandfathered in now anyway.

It would be interesting to hear the howls of protest if the grandfathering element were done away with and everyone had to re-cert for any new training blocks we impose on new students. The requirements creep and some of the fleecing might end overnight.

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Who are students allowed to jump with after AFF, but prior to A license? Only someone coach-rated, or anyone with an instructor rating? Is that it?

We have some new AFF graduates at our DZ and I'd love an opportunity to work with them, so I think I have to get the coach rating in order to be able to jump with them ... correct? I have no other instructional ratings.
You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them to fly in formation.

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EChen22

Who are students allowed to jump with after AFF, but prior to A license? Only someone coach-rated, or anyone with an instructor rating? Is that it?

That's correct. at least at our DZ. I have to admit I don't keep up with what the USPA requires all the time.

Quote

We have some new AFF graduates at our DZ and I'd love an opportunity to work with them, so I think I have to get the coach rating in order to be able to jump with them ... correct? I have no other instructional ratings.

Coach Rating is a great place to start. There are some good things to learn in the certification class.

The one instruction I was given before starting to jump with students many years ago? Don't ever fly over their back. (Because if they pull at the moment it's gonna hurt ya.) ;)

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