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Calvin19

Sailing adventure life or Regular adventure life?

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RiggerLee

I'm not ragging on you, I just want to make sure I've got this clear. Your partner is not a sailor. You sail but you have no time on a big cruising Cat. It's going to be three couples on vacation and you as the only crew. Your friend says he wants to try this out and learn but he will have his girl friend with him. It goes with out saying that she will consider this a vacation and will expect and demand his attention. Looks like you will be standing your night watches alone. If I'm off base correct me.


That is a valid point, but I should offer a little more about my friend.
Him and I (and his GF) have talked about the 'him being required to hold his bit' if we do anything longer than a full daylight leg. He is an (extremely) active commercial pilot and understands responsibility. Probably better than I do. I know his GF(of a few years) too and I can confidently say she will be fine with it, probably insist on it. If this was not him or one of my other very close friends (that I trust and have trusted many times with my life) I would not have agreed to this short cruise or talked at length about seriously buying a boat. Not that it matters much, but there are 4 couples + me There is bound to be at least one pair in a fight. :)

Quote

No shit, I wouldn't do it this way. The first thing I'd do is hire an old salty no nonsense ferry captain to come along for the ride. Some one with lots of time on big cats. Tell your friend it's worth the money. Even if he's just their to sit back in the corner and give you shit about what your doing wrong. Try to get some one that's operated in the area and knows the waters. Make the room. Hot bunk with him. You wont both be down at the same time. I honestly don't think you're qualified to single hand this big Cat alone which is what you are really looking at.



This is a good idea that I mentioned to him. Plan is not nearly as good, but I told him we should get at least a check out on the boat(for both our sakes) beforehand. We are going out on it with a skipper from the charter company for a half-day the day before everyone else gets there. Him, his friend(one of the other guys) and me are getting in 3 days early to get provisions and do this short introduction and will all be there.
Also, not that it matters much, but the boat is a 46, not 48. I too don't think I could single hand it. I want the guy who can to teach me how to sail a cat.

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I know you're a sailor but a big Cat is... different. At the very least buy a book on cruising Cats. I don't know much about them beyond what I've been told from a friend that used to charter them. he was a captain that taught ASA cruising courses on 50 Cats out of Belize and La Plia. Here are the highlights that I remember. Very stable. Too stable. Unlike a Hobie that will fly a hull a large heavy cat will not heal. Their is no real indication of how much load you are carrying in the rig. They have strain indicators. Load cells in the rigging to tell you how much stain you are pulling. You have to watch them. It's like flying instruments. Imagine if you were in IFR and you were def and could not hear the RPM's on the engine or hear the wind noise. The Air speed, Tac and Altimeter would be the only warning. So people get out in a nice freshening breeze with all their sails up and every thing is fine. As the wind picks up the the boat is moving right along and every thing seem fine. What a great boat. Maybe they turn a little more up into the wind and it's just singing. Then the mast goes over the side. No shit, it happens. Welcome to big cats. The next issue is that the hulls are skinny. Cats have skinny hulls. Other wise they wouldn't be cats just two mono hulls stuck together. The reason they are fast is that the fineness ratio is over... I don't recall. But that's what lets them beat the normal hull speed limitation. It's all about how the quarter wave forms. But the bottom line is skinny. No meat at the front or back. So you can push down on the bow and it will go down. Or push down on the stern and it will go down. Say into a wave. A mono hull has a lot more meat, volume, in the hull there and will resist this better. Also a mono hull doesn't have a deck like a big wing. They make it from mesh for a reason. The way you die in a big cat is to come over a swell into the wind, catch air under the front and the stern sinks down into the wave, remember this happens easily, and the cat lays gently over on it's back. And you will never ever get a big cat back over. No shit, why do you think they all have escape hatches in the belly on the BOTTOM. Who feels the need to put a fucking door in the floor of their boat. Only a cat driver. The best survival strategy is to turn slightly off the wind and ride over the swells at an angle. Draw a line from the leeward stern tip to the windward bow and keep that line into the wind. The idea is to take the wind on the free board of you upwind pontoon. Block as much of the wind from getting under your deck as you can. It's your best chance to ride out weather with out turning turtle. Again, this is just shit that I've heard. I'm not an expert. Find some one who is.


This is all good advice. I would want months of close-shore sailing with the boat and with him/a crew before going huge. Wouldn't go out of sight of land without being confident in a crews ability to get it and them home without me.

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Calvin19

***I'm not ragging on you, I just want to make sure I've got this clear. Your partner is not a sailor. You sail but you have no time on a big cruising Cat. It's going to be three couples on vacation and you as the only crew. Your friend says he wants to try this out and learn but he will have his girl friend with him. It goes with out saying that she will consider this a vacation and will expect and demand his attention. Looks like you will be standing your night watches alone. If I'm off base correct me.


That is a valid point, but I should offer a little more about my friend.
Him and I (and his GF) have talked about the 'him being required to hold his bit' if we do anything longer than a full daylight leg. He is an (extremely) active commercial pilot and understands responsibility. Probably better than I do. I know his GF(of a few years) too and I can confidently say she will be fine with it, probably insist on it. If this was not him or one of my other very close friends (that I trust and have trusted many times with my life) I would not have agreed to this short cruise or talked at length about seriously buying a boat. Not that it matters much, but there are 4 couples + me There is bound to be at least one pair in a fight. :)

Quote

No shit, I wouldn't do it this way. The first thing I'd do is hire an old salty no nonsense ferry captain to come along for the ride. Some one with lots of time on big cats. Tell your friend it's worth the money. Even if he's just their to sit back in the corner and give you shit about what your doing wrong. Try to get some one that's operated in the area and knows the waters. Make the room. Hot bunk with him. You wont both be down at the same time. I honestly don't think you're qualified to single hand this big Cat alone which is what you are really looking at.



This is a good idea that I mentioned to him. Plan is not nearly as good, but I told him we should get at least a check out on the boat(for both our sakes) beforehand. We are going out on it with a skipper from the charter company for a half-day the day before everyone else gets there. Him, his friend(one of the other guys) and me are getting in 3 days early to get provisions and do this short introduction and will all be there.
Also, not that it matters much, but the boat is a 46, not 48. I too don't think I could single hand it. I want the guy who can to teach me how to sail a cat.

Quote


I know you're a sailor but a big Cat is... different. At the very least buy a book on cruising Cats. I don't know much about them beyond what I've been told from a friend that used to charter them. he was a captain that taught ASA cruising courses on 50 Cats out of Belize and La Plia. Here are the highlights that I remember. Very stable. Too stable. Unlike a Hobie that will fly a hull a large heavy cat will not heal. Their is no real indication of how much load you are carrying in the rig. They have strain indicators. Load cells in the rigging to tell you how much stain you are pulling. You have to watch them. It's like flying instruments. Imagine if you were in IFR and you were def and could not hear the RPM's on the engine or hear the wind noise. The Air speed, Tac and Altimeter would be the only warning. So people get out in a nice freshening breeze with all their sails up and every thing is fine. As the wind picks up the the boat is moving right along and every thing seem fine. What a great boat. Maybe they turn a little more up into the wind and it's just singing. Then the mast goes over the side. No shit, it happens. Welcome to big cats. The next issue is that the hulls are skinny. Cats have skinny hulls. Other wise they wouldn't be cats just two mono hulls stuck together. The reason they are fast is that the fineness ratio is over... I don't recall. But that's what lets them beat the normal hull speed limitation. It's all about how the quarter wave forms. But the bottom line is skinny. No meat at the front or back. So you can push down on the bow and it will go down. Or push down on the stern and it will go down. Say into a wave. A mono hull has a lot more meat, volume, in the hull there and will resist this better. Also a mono hull doesn't have a deck like a big wing. They make it from mesh for a reason. The way you die in a big cat is to come over a swell into the wind, catch air under the front and the stern sinks down into the wave, remember this happens easily, and the cat lays gently over on it's back. And you will never ever get a big cat back over. No shit, why do you think they all have escape hatches in the belly on the BOTTOM. Who feels the need to put a fucking door in the floor of their boat. Only a cat driver. The best survival strategy is to turn slightly off the wind and ride over the swells at an angle. Draw a line from the leeward stern tip to the windward bow and keep that line into the wind. The idea is to take the wind on the free board of you upwind pontoon. Block as much of the wind from getting under your deck as you can. It's your best chance to ride out weather with out turning turtle. Again, this is just shit that I've heard. I'm not an expert. Find some one who is.


This is all good advice. I would want months of close-shore sailing with the boat and with him/a crew before going huge. Wouldn't go out of sight of land without being confident in a crews ability to get it and them home without me.

As part of your provisioning for offshore...... top of the line Avon life raft.. WELL provisioned.. including a manual desalination pump... and Gumby suits and practice getting into them just as fast as you can manage as if your life depends on it because it does... Cold water will kill you if you end up in it for any reason.... Offshore harness.. for everyone on board on deck... at all times and its not worth a crap if you are not clipped into the line.
Get a top of the line EPIRB.. registered so it will hit a sat and notify the people who could save your lives as soon as it is set off.

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And you should know these things, but...


Don't pee over the side. Get a piss bottle. When ever a body is found of a sailor that has fallen over on a night watch, his fly is always open. Oddly this never seems to happen to female crew members.

Yes a good life boat. But with a good well designed mono hull I could almost say that it's redundant. Almost with out exception your better off staying with the boat. Many a time some one has gotten scared and bailed from the ship. you know what they find? The raft upside down and empty and the boat still afloat. Short of hitting some thing big like a lost container and breaking the hull open you're better off in the boat. A cat may be another story. Also, if you think your well equipped life raft is equipped, it's not. Put together a water tight bail out bag of all the shit that will really keep you alive. Tie it to the raft. Don't keep it bellow. If things go that bad... their wont be time. If you have time to get ready, you have time to save the ship.

Know where all the extinguishers are on board. Make sure the are spread out so you have one on your side of the fire. Fire is a bitch. Check the propane and CO sensors. I don't know what kind of stove or fuel your running. Use your blowers. Check the oil pressure alarm.

Get a good inflatable life vest. Get a good strobe for it, Hell even sew a pocket to it with a flair.

all the standard stuff. Sun screen. A couple of spare hats. Even with a string under the chip your you know you're going to lose one.

And if you haven't learned to use one, buy a sextant and tables. It's just old school and cool. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it.

Lee
Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

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Calvin19


I had a '79 40' Cutter-rigged sloop made by Yorktown. Center cockpit. I liked the visibility and the huge master. What is your reasoning?



The big one for me is stability - particularly in weather. Center cockpits are far more likely to induce motion sickness, at least for me - and I'm sure you know how debilitating that can be. The visibility is really nice though!


I got a load of advice from the old salty guys this afternoon which I'll type up over when I get back from my vacation, but the summary is:

A huge no on the Cat option - out of 3 guys who have been sailing all their lives they all agreed on this. They were less than complimentary about the decision making of even considering it unless you're racing. ;)

They also all suggested that you'd be far better off crewing a few long legs before being the responsible party on your own.

All of them agreed that you will probably underestimate the cost of prepping a boat for oceanic sailing, and said that they still do.


I think you'd love to do some time in open water sailing. As Lee intimated there are all sorts of forums where you can sign up for crew positions and I think you'd love that.
I'm really struggling to give you a 'go for it!' for this idea as much as I'd like to though - mostly because I'm unsure of your partner.

I'm off to Hawaii tomorrow but took notes and will type up stuff in more detail when I return.

edit: the advice about the harness from Amazon is a good one. ALWAYS be clipped in at night.

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RiggerLee

And if you haven't learned to use one, buy a sextant and tables. It's just old school and cool. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it.

Lee



Still one of the random things I'm most proud of. :D

Gadgets fail. Go the Mk1 eyeball.

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RiggerLee

The first thing I'd do is hire an old salty no nonsense ferry captain to come along for the ride. Some one with lots of time on big cats. Tell your friend it's worth the money. Even if he's just their to sit back in the corner and give you shit about what your doing wrong. Try to get some one that's operated in the area and knows the waters.



Oh, you mean like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOPl21EVhaU:D
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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All of that sounds nice, but what is it that YOU want to do.
I love boats but living on one for me would suck.
I currently love the life I'm living, working in a job I love for 4 years and traveling for a year in the 5th, as well as jaunts mid years to various places.

What is it that lift you up and makes your heart smile.
Find that and fuck anyone elses plan.;)
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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Blue water cruising and hopping along the coast are two very different types of sailing. Beyond the poorer safety of a cat offshore is the fact that (though comfortable for having a G&T on anchor) are not comfortable at sea in weather; you get roll from all directions.

Also upwind sailing is slower and you are unable to sail as close hauled– look at all the surface a cat presents upwind.

For your use, attached are copies of my own Briefing Notes and Passage Plan Template.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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Squeak

All of that sounds nice, but what is it that YOU want to do.
I love boats but living on one for me would suck.
I currently love the life I'm living, working in a job I love for 4 years and traveling for a year in the 5th, as well as jaunts mid years to various places.

What is it that lift you up and makes your heart smile.
Find that and fuck anyone elses plan.;)



My retirement plan is coming.... spending the summer months sailing the Irish Sea and visiting as many wee islands as I can all around Scotland but I am opting for a 36' monohull AND it will be a pilothouse cutter, the old bones start creaking a bit when the weather is normal for that region since I get to practice in Americas version of crappy British weather. When the autumn winds start blowing it will be time to sail back to the home port and have the boat put up on the hard... and fly home. The nice part of this plan is when the weather starts to get nice in the spring I can make a call to the yard and have them prep the boat, my cabin in the ancestral lands for a summer of fun in wee port towns.

Winters I may just go someplace warm in the southern hemisphere and get a bit of sailing in there.... Its been a while since I have seen the Southern Cross..... and I really look forward to being under a sky... far out to sea... where there is absolutely no light pollution from my fellow human beings.

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RMK


An alternate idea, would be to do the same time sailing the world, but keeping your money in your pocket. You'd be surprised at the number of wealthy people who need spare hands with their boats. Have a look at something like www.crewseekers.net to get some ideas.



I am a member of crewseekers and have made a few inquiries in the last year or two. Of course I would prefer our 'own' boat on 'our' schedule, but crewing vs leading make little difference to me as long as the dynamics are good between crew members. I get along pretty easy with almost anyone, but I hate being in the middle of squabbles between other people if I have to bunk with them. That said, I will talk to my friend about doing this instead for a winter until he/we are both more ready to go it alone. If we can find connecting legs to crew that would be ideal. Part/half of the appeal of sailing is not knowing where you will end up and that would be the case with that plan.

Side note- I just got back from Hawaii on a drone job filming/studying the corral reef bleaching events. I met a few scientists who work/have worked with WHOI and the Alvin DSRV. I think I would rather work on the RV Atlantis (Alvin's support ship) than sail. I can't be a commercial pilot, but I could theoretically be an Alvin pilot, eventually. Dream job #3.

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A couple ideas for you:

1) In late October, there is the annual ARC (Atlantic Rally for Cruisers) www.worldcruising.com/arc/ which is a yacht rally from the Canaries lslands to Rodney Bay, St Lucia (2700 nautical miles). There are over 200 yachts taking part and with most people flying home, there is always need for crew to sail the boats back to Europe – you could get a free Atlantic crossing on a nice yacht.

2) The big money and their toys move around the world with the seasons, In January, they are all in Antigua at Falmouth Harbour (we're talking Paul Allen and Larry Ellison money). A week or two hanging around the marina and bars will virtually ensure you get yourself on nice boat going somewhere.

I hold a RYA/MCA Yachtmaster Ocean ticket w/ commercial endorsement (but don’t work in the industry, just a keen sailor). Back in the early 2000’s, I took a short career hiatus of about 12 months and got into the global offshore yacht racing scene. I skippered a yacht delivery from Antigua to Key West at this time of year – we even took a stray yachtsmen aboard that we met on docks for that the trip. He got free weeks sail on a Farr 65 and saved his airfare money to get himself back to the US.

Regarding experience and qualifications, on a global basis the RYA training & qualifications (Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper & Yachtmaster Coastal/Offshore/Ocean) are the most widely known and accepted. However the US variants including ASA and US Sailing certifications are fine for US/Caribbean bareboat charter – maybe worth looking into these.
"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

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If anyone is interested, the charter I skippered for 2 weeks went great. 48' Leopard catamaran. 8 crew. My first cat as a skipper. Good times.

Sharks, diving, fishing (and watching a mako take out one of our tuna seconds before landing it), hydrofoil dive fin towing, making awesome upwind VMG, 3 countries, bikinis, excellent food and drink. All good things.

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That's great. Yeah, I was curious periodically; thanks for the update.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Calvin19

If anyone is interested, the charter I skippered for 2 weeks went great. 48' Leopard catamaran. 8 crew. My first cat as a skipper. Good times.

Sharks, diving, fishing (and watching a mako take out one of our tuna seconds before landing it), hydrofoil dive fin towing, making awesome upwind VMG, 3 countries, bikinis, excellent food and drink. All good things.



What is that saying again.............................oh yeah

If there are no pictures or video.. it dint happen... Post em ;)

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Amazon

***If anyone is interested, the charter I skippered for 2 weeks went great. 48' Leopard catamaran. 8 crew. My first cat as a skipper. Good times.

Sharks, diving, fishing (and watching a mako take out one of our tuna seconds before landing it), hydrofoil dive fin towing, making awesome upwind VMG, 3 countries, bikinis, excellent food and drink. All good things.



What is that saying again.............................oh yeah

If there are no pictures or video.. it dint happen... Post em ;)

Of the local bikini girls that love sea captains? Or just us on the boat?
B|:)

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The crew gave me that hat the day we set sail. SUPER dorky but ended up being the best wingman I ever had.

We were able to make 5kts VMG at 41 degrees AWD. (19kts AWS) The boat is kinda a hog, but she did well. Good for a crew that only had 1.7 competent sailors aboard.

I'm a monohull man no doubt.

-SPACE-

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Calvin19

The crew gave me that hat the day we set sail. SUPER dorky but ended up being the best wingman I ever had.

We were able to make 5kts VMG at 41 degrees AWD. (19kts AWS) The boat is kinda a hog, but she did well. Good for a crew that only had 1.7 competent sailors aboard.

I'm a monohull man no doubt.



Noice hat duuuuude... I am sure the usual pervs around here would prefer the bikini pics.;)

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Amazon

***Tiny canopies, big boats. Funny how skydivers flip the risk and comfort factors when they go to sea. ;)

377



Hey now my boat ain't that big... considering where I like to play

That's more like it!!! My first big water was on a 27' off san diego. 3 days out. 1.5day SW, then 1.5 day back. Good times!!!

-SPACE-

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Amazon

***Tiny canopies, big boats. Funny how skydivers flip the risk and comfort factors when they go to sea. ;)

377



Hey now my boat ain't that big... considering where I like to play

Good to see your color preferences haven't changed :D
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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Stumpy

******Tiny canopies, big boats. Funny how skydivers flip the risk and comfort factors when they go to sea. ;)

377



Hey now my boat ain't that big... considering where I like to play

Good to see your color preferences haven't changed :D

Well I did get a white 1 ton to replace my red 3/4 ton....the deal was just too good to pass up... so Big Red had to go... but my wee Bug convertible is still a proper Red Bug

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