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Nataly

What would the world look like if...?

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RiggerLee

Sorry if I get long winded. I'm ether super busy here or totally board. They really don't have enough work to keep me busy full time.

I'm not very good at it but I was really trying to be coherent.

Base question: would the removal of immigration law law cause total chaos.

My response:

No because it's not the main impediment.

My arguments:

Financial ability, opportunity, the ability to survive once there play a bigger part.

Migration, regardless of the scale, be it by neighborhood or country, is self balancing and the ebb and flow of economy/environment will self correct any imbalance.

Human interference in this based on our misconceptions or less then honorable intentions leads to the most vilant oscillation and unrest in society.

Cultures are not all equal. Some are more aggressive then others. Some more robust, better suited to survive. Some more suited to progress and others prone to stagnation. It is not surprising that when two meet that one will dominate, supplant the other.

This is all part of why populations move and what happens when they collide with each other. I don't think any of this is irrelevant.


As to the fate of the aboriginal native american Indianans. It's real simple. They lost. It's not some thing any of us should feel bad about. It's just what happened. And it really wasn't any thing we did, at least not intentionally. The seeds of those events had been building up for thousands of years. There are several interesting books on the subject of the collapse of the native american cultures. There are a lot of reasons why they basically went extinct. Estimates range from a die off of 85% to 95% of the population of the new world. A restricted almost inbred genetic pool. A high degree of isolation. Limited immunity to disease. Limitations on technical development due to limited availability of suitable animals for domestication. Basically they ran into a much more aggressive culture. We grew up in a very competitive environment. Then some one coughed and it was all over. Thing is 95% of the people we "slaughtered" in our "Genocide" of the aboriginal Americans never met a white man. In fact their deaths ran ahead of European expansion by... 150 to 200 years. By the time we reached them the great nations in america were already long gone. The tribes we met were just the remnants left over generations after the apocalypses. The Sue were not some noble race. They were the left overs. They were like the gangs wondering the waist lands of their fallen civilization like in the old post apocalyptic movies that were big back in the 80's. The Apaches were road warriors. Think Mad Max. We just expanded into the void that they left behind. The Indian wars were just us pushing the last few survivors out of our way. If we'd met them in their prime... I'm not sure we would have won. We had technological advantages but not that great. Muzzle loaders aren't that much better then a bow. At least the British had metallic cartridges when they faced the Zulu and even then it was touch and go. My point is don't feel bad about your ancestry or the fact that you are descended from the winners in the conflict.

Law. Quebec, well those people are just weird. French men that never went home. An isolated pocket of subculture. We actually have some thing similar here. Louisiana is basically the same. French heritage. The state law is actually derived from french law. It's unlike any thing else in the country.

Lee




Wow... Your ignorance of history and the resulting mish-mash of information is impressive...

Look up "smallpox, blankets and natives" - get back to me on whether you think that was something Europeans did "unintentionally"... There was genocide and widespread massacres of natives. People don't like to call it that because it doesn't sit well with them. But that is still what happened.

Louisianna - the Cajuns came from "Nouvelle France" - renamed to "Acadie" - ie: east-coast of Canada, which originally was claimed by the French before they lost the war... (Acadiens - pronounced "acadjun" - become the "cadjun", bla bla). In 1755 there was the "Grand Dérangement" (the deportation of Acadians) - most of those people died; some made it all the way back to various parts of Europe; some (now the Cajuns) landed in Louisianna...

The Quebecois are not "small pockets" of people who never went home... Good lord... Where to even begin???!!!!! So much factual incorrectness... SOME of what you say is true but you are way way WAY off on the big stuff - you're mixing everything together... Like comparing apples, trucks and isosceles triangles to make a point about vegetarian cooking!!! WTF???!!!! :S:S:| Maybe step away from google for a bit and don't try your hand at historical stuff just yet...

Putting ALL of your geographical/historical nonsense aside... I nevertheless agree with you that things like "Financial ability, opportunity, the ability to survive once there" are bigger barriers to the movement of people than legal/physical barriers (ie: immigration laws/borders). This is of course merely an opinion... But at least we have found some common ground!!! Hooray!! :D:D:P
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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I don't think I'm that far off.

Quebec:

Briton and France were contending for control of northern NA.

France lost the French Indian war.

All the northern lands were ceded to England.

The Quebec french are the descendants of the people that never went home. It was just too hard to chase them all down in that vast wilderness. As long as they didn't rock the boat too much, England let them be.

Today they're mostly grouped in an isolated pocket around Montreal. But in fairness that's true of most of Canada. Lot's of empty. The European decedents tend to huddle in there cities in the south. Most of the rural population is aboriginal.

And they are weird. Every one agrees on this. Don't get me wrong I have or had friends that were Quebec french till he flew into a mountain. They've just never accepted that they lost the war and that their asses belong to England or Canada now and assimilated.


Genocide:

Over the last decade or two there has been a lot of archaeology that has come to light concerning pre Colombian civilizations. Eventually they will get around to writing new text books but it turns out that there was a vast history on this continent. For a long time people assumed that the tribes and culture that we encountered as we expanded across america were the aboriginal civilizations. Turns out that they were already dead or in decline before we reached them. Look up Mound builders. Some of these settlements were huge. Large well established societies. But by the time we reached them they were already long gone.

There been a lot written about this recently. I'll suggest some of the more popular books.

1491
Easily readable. It's basically a collection of a lot of research by a journalist but it brings together some of the recent work in a very accessible source. It deals with the shape and fall of pre Colombian culture. And it looks like these civilizations were wider spread and more organised then any one ever believed.

Guns Germs and Steal
This is kind of a case study of what happens when different groups run into each other. It's not bad but it's really a collection of antidotes. He tries to explain why one group prevails over another. So beyond the actual history of the events it's really his conjecture but it's thought provoking and he raises some interesting points.

Collapse
It's about why civilizations fall. This does seem to be a repetitive theme in history and I've always been interested in it. I was a little dessipointed in this book. I think he could have gone further with it but he spent most of his time on climate and it's affect on the viability of civilizations. It wasn't bad and there are some good examples for his arguments but I think there is more to some of the stories. It does touch on some of the collapses here in NA that occurred long before we arrived. Like I said there is a lot of story here.

As to the story of blankets. That ones been around for years. I'm not sure where it originally came from. It's discussed in a couple of these books. As far as they could tell it never really happened at least not in the intentional since like it normally pertrade in the movies. There was maybe one indecent but it was not a wide spread campaign.

This is drifting a little off the original subject but it all kind of relates together into the ebb and flow of people and cultures and civilizations. How urban centers rise up and then fall into decay and on the larger scale the same thing happens to whole nations and empires. I think it's interesting. We see the same process happening around us right now.

Lee
Lee
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www.velocitysportswear.com

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RiggerLee

I don't think I'm that far off.

Quebec:

Briton and France were contending for control of northern NA.

France lost the French Indian war.

All the northern lands were ceded to England.

The Quebec french are the descendants of the people that never went home. It was just too hard to chase them all down in that vast wilderness. As long as they didn't rock the boat too much, England let them be.

Today they're mostly grouped in an isolated pocket around Montreal. But in fairness that's true of most of Canada. Lot's of empty. The European decedents tend to huddle in there cities in the south. Most of the rural population is aboriginal.

And they are weird. Every one agrees on this. Don't get me wrong I have or had friends that were Quebec french till he flew into a mountain. They've just never accepted that they lost the war and that their asses belong to England or Canada now and assimilated.


Genocide:

Over the last decade or two there has been a lot of archaeology that has come to light concerning pre Colombian civilizations. Eventually they will get around to writing new text books but it turns out that there was a vast history on this continent. For a long time people assumed that the tribes and culture that we encountered as we expanded across america were the aboriginal civilizations. Turns out that they were already dead or in decline before we reached them. Look up Mound builders. Some of these settlements were huge. Large well established societies. But by the time we reached them they were already long gone.

There been a lot written about this recently. I'll suggest some of the more popular books.

1491
Easily readable. It's basically a collection of a lot of research by a journalist but it brings together some of the recent work in a very accessible source. It deals with the shape and fall of pre Colombian culture. And it looks like these civilizations were wider spread and more organised then any one ever believed.

Guns Germs and Steal
This is kind of a case study of what happens when different groups run into each other. It's not bad but it's really a collection of antidotes. He tries to explain why one group prevails over another. So beyond the actual history of the events it's really his conjecture but it's thought provoking and he raises some interesting points.

Collapse
It's about why civilizations fall. This does seem to be a repetitive theme in history and I've always been interested in it. I was a little dessipointed in this book. I think he could have gone further with it but he spent most of his time on climate and it's affect on the viability of civilizations. It wasn't bad and there are some good examples for his arguments but I think there is more to some of the stories. It does touch on some of the collapses here in NA that occurred long before we arrived. Like I said there is a lot of story here.

As to the story of blankets. That ones been around for years. I'm not sure where it originally came from. It's discussed in a couple of these books. As far as they could tell it never really happened at least not in the intentional since like it normally pertrade in the movies. There was maybe one indecent but it was not a wide spread campaign.

This is drifting a little off the original subject but it all kind of relates together into the ebb and flow of people and cultures and civilizations. How urban centers rise up and then fall into decay and on the larger scale the same thing happens to whole nations and empires. I think it's interesting. We see the same process happening around us right now.

Lee




Sorry... Just quoting this in case you one day realise how BLATENTLY wrong you are on almost all accounts and decide to erase it... I personaly don't think it should be erased. I think this is a brilliant example of what can happen when google is in the wrong hands...

Fortunately, anyone who cares about the truth can do some digging and see that this is sheer, utter, glib nonsense.
"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

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