"Fly the Friendly Skies"

[headoverheels 291]

So you think that it is perfectly fine to lie, when you are still at the boarding area, but not to refuse to give up your seat after you've been boarded, and the "offering" price is still relatively low for anyone with a job and a schedule.

[wmw999 2,121]

This kind of thing can result from thinking your customers are resources, not independent actors that require individual consideration. Kind of like thinking of your employees as resources.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tkhayes 125]

I wonder what it would have cost United just to go across the field to one of the small carriers, like Talon or ORD and charter a plane to move their staff to wherever they needed to go. I somehow bet it was less that the stock tanking they took yesterday.

It's OK, their stock will rebound as well shortly, maybe not to 100% but capitalists cannot stand passing up a bargain priced stock.

[DJL 232]

catfishhunter

No what's disgusting is everyone excuses temper tantrums. But from the people siding with the grown man acting like a 3 year old it isn't surprising. The other folks that got bumped didn't throw a fit. They didn't like it but they didn't break into a fit and interfere with the flight. This guy broke the law and should have gone to jail. NO ONE has a right to a seat on a plane. You bought the OPPROTUNITY to fly which can be revoke at anytime for any reason after volunteers have been asked for and refused. PERIOD. This person refused to leave then he ran back on the plane and ran up and down the isle. His behavior is appealing as is all of those defending this ;spoiled selfish brat behavior. Last thing if anyone on that plane actually cared about him being a "doctor" any of them could have stepped up and took his place.

Ah yes, the air law experts are out today.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 910]

headoverheels

So you think that it is perfectly fine to lie, when you are still at the boarding area, but not to refuse to give up your seat after you've been boarded, and the "offering" price is still relatively low for anyone with a job and a schedule.

Mr. Dao received repeated instructions to leave the aircraft from the flight crew. Which was not shown on any video. Then he refused instructions to leave from the airport "cops". Again he refused.

Lying to a flight crew is different than refusing to obey a lawful trespass order from a flight crew. Multiple requests to leave and multiple orders to leave.

Mr. Dao was a convicted drug dealer. With multiple felony convictions for drug dealing, he was charged with 90 counts. Mr. Dao never served a single day in prison. Do you think a black kid convicted of narcotics trafficking would never see a day in prison? What about the black kid selling a couple joints on the street corner?

Its been stated again and again that Mr. Dao was "beaten up".
NO he was forceably removed from his seat. He struck his mouth on a armrest. Then he was dragged down the isle while he faked unconsciousness.

I'll point out that his glasses were still on his face. After he struck his mouth. In fact the temples of his eyeglasses were still on his ears. That defines precisely how hard his mouth hit the armrest.

I have been asked to move seats on a couple flights by flight crews. The three other passengers on the flight which did leave the flight went on their way to later flights.

Mr. Dao learned several years ago that the laws that apply to others don't apply to him. He has also been the subject of multiple Kentucky Medical Association investigations for misconduct.Seperate convictions from his drug charges. He was refused reinstatement by the Kentucky board on his first reapplication for reinstatement of privileges.They found that he had not rehabilitated himself.

Now Mr. Dao in enjoying his opportunity to stick it to United. He released a statement from "hospital" where he stated that "everything " was injured. Really, that sounds like a medical diagnosis from a professional poker player that knows how to play his hand.

Play his hand to the limit, because he sees United blink.

I'll leave this to the pundits. Who have never arrived at a hotel to find that their confirmed room reservation rented to another party. Never seen a drunk ejected from a restaurant for disturbing every patron there.

Hopefully the next B777 that you fly on has 390 Mr. Dao's who think that customer service means coffee before takeoff. Means that ME, I, and the flight ticket that was purchased. Is a prescription to do, say and act anyway I want. Because after all, I'm a valuable customer.

[BillyVance 34]

Another one.


Damnit forgot to upload at first

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[DJL 232]

tkhayes

I wonder what it would have cost United just to go across the field to one of the small carriers, like Talon or ORD and charter a plane to move their staff to wherever they needed to go. I somehow bet it was less that the stock tanking they took yesterday.

It's OK, their stock will rebound as well shortly, maybe not to 100% but capitalists cannot stand passing up a bargain priced stock.

No kidding. Louisville is a 5 hour drive from Chicago and the employees weren't needed until the next day. It's not like they were carrying a heart transplant and this was their last option.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Phil1111 910]

tkhayes

I wonder what it would have cost United just to go across the field to one of the small carriers, like Talon or ORD and charter a plane to move their staff to wherever they needed to go. I somehow bet it was less that the stock tanking they took yesterday.

It's OK, their stock will rebound as well shortly, maybe not to 100% but capitalists cannot stand passing up a bargain priced stock.

AFAIK all the smaller airlines do that. Just as almost all airlines accommodate deadheading crew members from other companies.

While taxiing out for takeoff, the Boeing 727 suddenly came to a stop. With the aircraft still on the taxiway, the flight attendant in the back began to lower the aft stairway. Behind the plane, a van with flashing lights came to a screeching halt and out jumped three deadheading pilots. They grabbed their bags and ran to the plane.

As they ran up the stairs, the pilot in front continued running up the aisle shouting, “I can’t believe the stewardess got the plane this far. I didn’t know she even knew how to start the engines!”
For a number of passengers it took quite some time before they realized they had been had by these jokers, you couldn’t believe the startled looks on their faces!

[irishrigger 31]

I would disagree with you somewhat on your post.
what has his previous convictions got to do with this incident??? that should never have come into play here and I blame the Media for blowing that out of all proportion. this incident did not happen because he had Previous convictions!!!
if this guy was stopped before boarding the plane and told we are over booked, I would have no issue what so ever. the fact is he was issued a boarding pass and was seated on the plane! I too would be extremely pissed off about that and refuse to get off the plane, which to my knowledge and understanding goes against Company protocol and might have been illegal!?!? I haven't seen or heard of the full video being shown and do not know what happened before the video clip started.
but In my opinion this was handled extremely poorly by the airline no matter what!! the Captain is in charge of the Aircraft? did he make any announcements or try to reason with the passenger/s?? that might have possibly diffused the situation.(not sure if that happened or not)
the Chairman of United Airlines also screwed up with his statement in my opinion, they really need to learn how to control things much better. he should have gotten all the facts first before commenting.
given this day and age everyone is on social media and staff should be correctly trained for situations like this. I agree with TK that there stocks will bounce back eventually but to have almost 750mill wiped out due to a ridiculous incident like this is well deserved in my opinion. they already have a very low customer satisfaction rating and seeing this will only make it worse.
If and when I am in the States again I certainly will not be flying with them! and a few others will probably do the same.

My 2c

Irish

[BillyVance 34]

From the Jimmy Kimmel show. It's hysterical.

"We'll beat you so badly you'll be using your own face as a flotation device!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ_BwnbSrWs

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[ryoder 1,382]

Alderman Mike Zalewski, chairman of the City Council's Aviation Committee:
"The flight was overbooked. They were looking for people to give up their seats for United employees ...
This all should have been taken care of in the holding area -- not on the plane."
Source: http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20170410/news/170419874/

United's own rules for passengers:

RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT
(covers reasons for removing a boarded passenger, and overbooking is not one of them).

RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
(covers overbooking)
Source: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx

United was operating outside of it's own rules in removing a boarded passenger because of overbooking.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DJL 232]

catfishhunter

No what's disgusting is everyone excuses temper tantrums. But from the people siding with the grown man acting like a 3 year old it isn't surprising. The other folks that got bumped didn't throw a fit. They didn't like it but they didn't break into a fit and interfere with the flight. This guy broke the law and should have gone to jail. NO ONE has a right to a seat on a plane. You bought the OPPROTUNITY to fly which can be revoke at anytime for any reason after volunteers have been asked for and refused. PERIOD. This person refused to leave then he ran back on the plane and ran up and down the isle. His behavior is appealing as is all of those defending this ;spoiled selfish brat behavior. Last thing if anyone on that plane actually cared about him being a "doctor" any of them could have stepped up and took his place.

How did he break the law and how is he a selfish brat? Is that the go-to insult for people unwilling to bend over and take it up the ass?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[SethInMI 145]

I'm with the "pro-United" crowd on this one, and I guess when I consider why that is I think it is odd that there is the strong distinction between being in the boarding area and being on the plane, and that comes from my own experience of never really being sure I am getting to my destination on a particular plane, due to weather or mechanical issues.

I have had to leave the plane due to mechanical issues:
1. After boarding.
2. After pushing back and return to gate.
3. After taxiing out to runway and return to gate.
4. and once after taking off and getting to about 5000ft, had to circle around and land again and return to gate.

So I am never really feel comfortable believing I will arrive on the plane I am on until I'm at cruising altitude, and these experiences lessen the difference between:
1. Being in the boarding area with a seat assignment
2. Being seated in that seat on the plane

So the idea that if the passenger had been denied boarding, but had pushed past the agent and boarded anyway, feel free to taze him, but once you let him on the jetbridge you have to let him fly regardless of the rules, does not make sense to me.

One thought experiment:
1. United announces the plane is broken and a replacement plane will be brought in. Everyone deplanes. Then United announces that plane is fixed but due to re-scheduling issues not everyone can get back on. Is our stubborn hero passenger still a hero if he pushes his way back on the plane, or is the fact that he is in the boarding area mean he's fucked?

Seth

It's flare not flair, brakes not breaks, bridle not bridal, "could NOT care less" not "could care less".

[DJL 232]

It's a matter of having some damned standards as to what you'll expect from an agreement you paid for. All of your scenarios are things they can do nothing about as is an airplane with no seats remaining and the inability to place more people in those seats. So that's the boarding area/seat difference.

If I'm in the boarding area there's nothing I can do over them screwing me over other than get pissed that I can't board and have to take another flight.

If I'm in a seat it's done and the repercussion for me staying absolutely is not my forcible removal. I'm a human not a shipping items. The airline has made it very clear that they screwed up, that there were other options, and this will never happen again. It took someone standing up to being treated like cattle and that's better for the rest of us.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[tigra 0]

There is absolutely no justification for what was done to this man, none whatsoever. None. United didn't even follow their own policies during the incident. The level of violence used on this man simply wasn't warranted. He was in his seat saying "No". He was not violent, nor was he combative. He wasn't a threat to anyone's safety. There were a hundred different better alternatives but United chose to humiliate and assault a 69 year old man instead of trying for a fair solution.

Quite frankly, having been on the receiving end of what passes for customer service at United Airlines on more than one occasion I am surprised that more customers do not become "bratty" or belligerent or loud. I know I was forced to raise my voice and become very demanding at a ticket counter after a missed connection (their fault, not weather or equipment or safety related.) Their first option to "make things right" is what benefits them, not you. They won't re-book you with another airline to get you to your destination faster unless you insist.

[Stumpy 256]

Phil1111

Mr. Dao was a convicted drug dealer. With multiple felony convictions for drug dealing, he was charged with 90 counts. Mr. Dao never served a single day in prison. Do you think a black kid convicted of narcotics trafficking would never see a day in prison? What about the black kid selling a couple joints on the street corner?

Mr. Dao learned several years ago that the laws that apply to others don't apply to him. He has also been the subject of multiple Kentucky Medical Association investigations for misconduct.Seperate convictions from his drug charges. He was refused reinstatement by the Kentucky board on his first reapplication for reinstatement of privileges.They found that he had not rehabilitated himself.

Turns out its quite likely none of this is true. But

IT SHOULDN'T MATTER.

EVEN IF united are in the right and the Dr is in the wrong - in what world is this the right way to go about getting him off the plane, especially in the world of cameraphones, youtube, and facebook live.
Even if he is a convicted felon, his past has no relevance. Zero.

The dr had boarded, was seated, had paid for his ticket, and broken no rules or laws.
The plane was not actually overbooked - united fucked up with basic logistics.
United had not used all the options available to them to find willing volunteers.
The "cop" has been suspended because he did not operate appropriately.
United have already lost a LOT of money over this. They would have been far better off coughing up slightly more generous compensation. Would have been massively cheaper in the long run.

You are flat out wrong here. Enjoy your police state.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Phil1111 910]

Stumpy

***
Mr. Dao was a convicted drug dealer. With multiple felony convictions for drug dealing, he was charged with 90 counts. Mr. Dao never served a single day in prison. Do you think a black kid convicted of narcotics trafficking would never see a day in prison? What about the black kid selling a couple joints on the street corner?

Mr. Dao learned several years ago that the laws that apply to others don't apply to him. He has also been the subject of multiple Kentucky Medical Association investigations for misconduct.Seperate convictions from his drug charges. He was refused reinstatement by the Kentucky board on his first reapplication for reinstatement of privileges.They found that he had not rehabilitated himself.

Turns out its quite likely none of this is true. But

IT SHOULDN'T MATTER.

EVEN IF united are in the right and the Dr is in the wrong - in what world is this the right way to go about getting him off the plane, especially in the world of cameraphones, youtube, and facebook live.
Even if he is a convicted felon, his past has no relevance. Zero.

The dr had boarded, was seated, had paid for his ticket, and broken no rules or laws.
The plane was not actually overbooked - united fucked up with basic logistics.
United had not used all the options available to them to find willing volunteers.
The "cop" has been suspended because he did not operate appropriately.
United have already lost a LOT of money over this. They would have been far better off coughing up slightly more generous compensation. Would have been massively cheaper in the long run.

You are flat out wrong here. Enjoy your police state.

Here is what the drivers in the front office have to say about it.
Knock yourself out.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/101092-united-pax-forcibly-removed-flight.html

I can't be bothered to look it up. But a couple years ago a passenger was fined $3,300 by the FAA for hitting on a female passenger. Nothing physical, he just wouldn't give up. He took the case to the court of appeal and was denied.

The FA warned him to give up. Moved the female passenger but the passenger persisted. Disobeyed the FA orders to forget his amorous ideas.

[Stumpy 256]

Thanks for the link - seems most of the commenters agree with me.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Phil1111 910]

Stumpy

Thanks for the link - seems most of the commenters agree with me.

You're clearly sitting in the wrong seat;

Strap in with some kindred spirits:
http://www.miamiflightcenter.com/0-1500-hours-airline-pilot-program-99000/

[OWB 8]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Phil,

Quote

Stupid people, passengers and airline personnel.

I made my first flight on United in late 1959. I've flown United more than any other airline.

It has been some time ago, but United was bought by the employees ( buy-out led by a jumper ). They have been going downhill ever since.

Too bad, at one time I considered them the best of the domestics.

Jerry Baumchen

Yeah, once upon a time. Nothing new here though. Last summer I was booked on United to Omaha prior to the annual great bike ride across Iowa. I was in the check in line - not even my turn to check in - when the woman behind the counter blew off the Indian couple she was waiting on to begin screaming at me, demanding to know where the hell I thought I was going? Turns out my flight had been cancelled. (and this is how they notify me?) the woman was pretty much openly hostile, and I would not have been surprised to hear the phrase "in your face white man" at the end of her tirade. Never did make it to Iowa, but I did have the time to do some much needed repair work on my barn. Oh yeah, 54 hours after her canipshin , I got a text notifying me that my flight was cancelled but I should proceed to the airport anyway for further instructions.

Don't worry about nuthin' cause nothin's gonna be okay.

[baronn 111]

A fight can only be justified for 2 reasons: Protect people and protect property. Neither of these existed in this scenario. This was assault. plain and simple. Had this been your father, mother, brother or sister. you mite agree. I've gotten into a few altercations over the years and I can tell you a small injury to the head tends to bleed quite a bit. It doesn't always incapacitate you. Being a Sheeple and obediently following any and all "orders" regardless of rite or wrong, shows how programmed many have become. Sending these Goons in to remove this customer will prove to have been 1 of the stupidest decisions in Corporate history. TK's suggestion shude have been considered.

[DJL 232]

baronn

A fight can only be justified for 2 reasons: Protect people and protect property. Neither of these existed in this scenario. This was assault. plain and simple. Had this been your father, mother, brother or sister. you mite agree. I've gotten into a few altercations over the years and I can tell you a small injury to the head tends to bleed quite a bit. It doesn't always incapacitate you. Being a Sheeple and obediently following any and all "orders" regardless of rite or wrong, shows how programmed many have become. Sending these Goons in to remove this customer will prove to have been 1 of the stupidest decisions in Corporate history. TK's suggestion shude have been considered.

One of those alternatives could have been to allow him to take the flight and take up the issue (press charges, ban from future flights) once he disembarked at his destination. We know that it would have been a crock of shit but if that had happened we would probably all have been talking about the asshole who didn't give up his seat instead of the ass of an airline that beat up a 69-year-old man.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[normiss 622]

United Airlines passenger David Dao suffered 'significant' concussion, broken nose, lost two front teeth for being volunteered.

[ryoder 1,382]

normiss

United Airlines passenger David Dao suffered 'significant' concussion, broken nose, lost two front teeth for being volunteered.

His lawyer is supposed to be holding a press conference this morning.
Also, United is offering full refunds to all passengers on that flight.
And all 3 security guards are now suspended.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[DJL 232]

ryoder

***United Airlines passenger David Dao suffered 'significant' concussion, broken nose, lost two front teeth for being volunteered.

His lawyer is supposed to be holding a press conference this morning.
Also, United is offering full refunds to all passengers on that flight.
And all 3 security guards are now suspended.

I think it's pretty shitty that they're disciplining the security guards. It's obviously an issue of training and delineation of authority that includes the airline and the airplane's captain.
Security guards aren't exactly policy makers and tend to just do what they're told assuming their orders are legal. I'll stop short of questioning their intelligence, just saying that they're normal people in a blue-collar job.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher