Tesla Engineering Question

[BIGUN 1,051]

Watched a news report about the new Tesla, its new super lithium-ion battery, ability to go 210 miles on a single charge, 0-60 in six seconds, etc.

Not being an engineer; my question is this. My frame of reference is putting a generator on my bike wheel as a kid to make the lights work.

Is there not a way to use those moving parts on the Tesla to create enough charge to the battery that one could go cross country in it?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[quade 3]

BIGUN

Watched a news report about the new Tesla, its new super lithium-ion battery, ability to go 210 miles on a single charge, 0-60 in six seconds, etc.

Not being an engineer; my question is this. My frame of reference is putting a generator on my bike wheel as a kid to make the lights work.

Is there not a way to use those moving parts on the Tesla to create enough charge to the battery that one could go cross country in it?

No.

The motors themselves can be used for regenerative braking and recover some of the energy put into the system during stop and go and downhill operations.

However, what you're talking about would actually take energy out of the system and be less efficient. Not sure if you ever noticed, but putting that generator against the bike wheel causes a bit of extra resistance to turn the generator. The energy doesn't come free, it's provided by the person pedaling.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[BIGUN 1,051]

I see. Thanks for responding. Just a thought.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[dthames 0]

BIGUN

Watched a news report about the new Tesla, its new super lithium-ion battery, ability to go 210 miles on a single charge, 0-60 in six seconds, etc.

Not being an engineer; my question is this. My frame of reference is putting a generator on my bike wheel as a kid to make the lights work.

Is there not a way to use those moving parts on the Tesla to create enough charge to the battery that one could go cross country in it?

I am guessing a bit at what your question is asking.

On the bicycle, you are the power source. You take some of that power away to run the light. Suppose you put an electric motor and a battery on your bicycle.

You are peddling along at 10 MPH on flat ground. You flip a switch so that your generator (that did run your light) is now charging your battery. Pretend it is big enough to do that. Charging the battery takes power and because of that, now you are slowed to 7 MPH and doing the same work. Part of your work to make the bicycle go, and part to charge the battery. You keep this up for an hour or so and have some energy stored in the battery.

You are tired, need to rest, but don't want to stop. So you stop peddling and flip on the motor. Now the motor is running off of the battery and you are moving at 5 MPH, just using a little power from the motor. You are running your battery down, using up the power you "banked" there. Then you see a hill that you must go up. You know this hill. It is all you can do to manage to peddle up it. But what if you peddle and leave the motor running? Hey, that helped but now your battery is run down to 10%. On a bright note, the back side of that hill is downhill for a very long way. You turn the motor off and start peddling. 15 MPH with very little effort. Flip on the generator and with the same effort you are still going 12 MPH (downhill) and charging your battery at the same time.

Finally you stop at the DZ, do some jumps, and make the same trip back home. Thinking about your trip, this is what you observed.

1. The motor, generator, and battery added weight to your bicycle, which you must work to move over the ground and up the hills.
2. All of the power came from your legs.
3. Power stored in the battery helped at times, but it had a cost. Charging the battery always slowed you down, made your work harder, or both.
4. When it comes to moving something, there is no free lunch.

The exciting battery news that we hear now and then is largely related to what is called "power density". For a given size and weight (battery) if I can pack enough power in it to climb 5 hills instead of 3 hills or to go 200 miles instead of 150 miles, then that is good news.

But if I have to make a battery heavier or bigger to do more work, then that is not great news.

Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!”

[quade 3]

Considering Tesla also makes high efficiency solar panels, I'd really like to see them somehow incorporate that into the design of the cars. Not that it would give you a significant increase in milage while driving (they aren't that efficient), but the ability to get a free top off charge while it's just sitting in a parking lot would be interesting if they could work it out.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,394]

In most designs that I've seen, the loss of aerodynamics at highway speed is greater than the range gained. In other words, overall your range would go down even if you parked it in the sun often.

However, if you come up with a design that seamlessly blends them into a curved roof, without increasing thickness or weight or changing surface finish, then what you mention could work.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Paul,

Quote

Considering Tesla also makes high efficiency solar panels, I'd really like to see them somehow incorporate that into the design of the cars.

I am not going to look for the cite, but earlier this year I saw something about Toyota having solar panels in the roof to power the air movement thru the car. Toyota did not have it hooked into the charging system.

I was reading something recently about having an induction system in our roadways to charge while driving. Very expensive but it gets people thinking about how to solve these problems.

Jerry Baumchen

[quade 3]

billvon

In most designs that I've seen, the loss of aerodynamics at highway speed is greater than the range gained. In other words, overall your range would go down even if you parked it in the sun often.

However, if you come up with a design that seamlessly blends them into a curved roof, without increasing thickness or weight or changing surface finish, then what you mention could work.

And that's precisely the sort of thing I'm talking about. Solar cells don't have to be the huge thick panels we see on home rooftops (I mean, sure ,YOU know that, but for others). Tesla has already done interesting things in reshaping solar panels for home rooftops. It would be interesting to see what they could do for cars.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,394]

Quote

I was reading something recently about having an induction system in our roadways to charge while driving. Very expensive but it gets people thinking about how to solve these problems.

We're working on that now:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/qualcomms-inductive-charging-road-could-change-the-way-we-build-evs/

[quade 3]

billvon

Quote

I was reading something recently about having an induction system in our roadways to charge while driving. Very expensive but it gets people thinking about how to solve these problems.

We're working on that now:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/qualcomms-inductive-charging-road-could-change-the-way-we-build-evs/

Sorry Bill, I know it's your company and all, but I absolutely hate this idea.

Why? Because there is no need to build the infrastructure and have centralized control over energy this way. I can completely understand a company's want of such a thing, but for everyone else, it's not really that great of a long term plan.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[DougH 270]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Paul,

Quote

Considering Tesla also makes high efficiency solar panels, I'd really like to see them somehow incorporate that into the design of the cars.

I am not going to look for the cite, but earlier this year I saw something about Toyota having solar panels in the roof to power the air movement thru the car. Toyota did not have it hooked into the charging system.

I was reading something recently about having an induction system in our roadways to charge while driving. Very expensive but it gets people thinking about how to solve these problems.

Jerry Baumchen

My prius has a solar roof, it barely spins the fan while the car is off. Doesn't do much good, and it increased the weight of the roof. If I didn't buy it used I wouldn't have bought it.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[billvon 2,394]

Quote

Sorry Bill, I know it's your company and all, but I absolutely hate this idea. Why? Because there is no need to build the infrastructure and have centralized control over energy this way.

OK. I don't see it any differently than a toll road. Want to get a charge? Take this road and pay for the power. Don't want to get a charge? That's OK too; don't pay for it.

[gowlerk 1,905]

billvon

Quote

Sorry Bill, I know it's your company and all, but I absolutely hate this idea. Why? Because there is no need to build the infrastructure and have centralized control over energy this way.

OK. I don't see it any differently than a toll road. Want to get a charge? Take this road and pay for the power. Don't want to get a charge? That's OK too; don't pay for it.

But what about the obvious danger to the occupants of the car being charged by this invisible "inductive energy". Namely genetic mutations and autism?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[BIGUN 1,051]

Thank you. Exactly what my thoughts were and for the explanation. Have learned quite a bit from this thread. Thanks to all.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[quade 3]

billvon

Quote

Sorry Bill, I know it's your company and all, but I absolutely hate this idea. Why? Because there is no need to build the infrastructure and have centralized control over energy this way.

OK. I don't see it any differently than a toll road. Want to get a charge? Take this road and pay for the power. Don't want to get a charge? That's OK too; don't pay for it.

"I don't see it any differently than a toll road."

I don't know of a single person who wants a toll road as opposed to a freeway. Only companies who build them, or local fiefdoms who get the money.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,394]

>I don't know of a single person who wants a toll road as opposed to a freeway.

Then they can take the freeway.

I often take the 73 when I drive up to LA. It's faster.

[jono 0]

***


Printable paper thin solar panels ....
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/technology/australia-kickstarts-green-future-with-printed-solar-panel-sites/news-story/1c6d24ad91d45eb0c67b253852e3172a

Remember you don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop laughing.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Keith,

Quote

Have learned quite a bit from this thread.

We are here to serve.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) Now, start teaching that young daughter about this stuff; she might just make a bundle & really take care of you in your old age.

[BIGUN 1,051]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Keith,

Quote

Have learned quite a bit from this thread.

We are here to serve.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) Now, start teaching that young daughter about this stuff; she might just make a bundle & really take care of you in your old age.

Jerry, you have no idea. This new generation growing up in a world where STEM is pushed hard to young ladies is something to see. Her capacity to look at things and figure out how to take them apart and put them back together is astounding. Computers are a breeze, programming is boring.. She says she wans to be a mechanical engineer. I told her "You can do what you want as long as I never see you with wrenches around my Harley."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Keith,

Quote

She says she wants to be a mechanical engineer.

Great profession; ask me how I know.



Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,051]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Keith,

Quote

She says she wants to be a mechanical engineer.

Great profession; ask me how I know.



Jerry Baumchen

I have a pretty good idea, Brother.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Stumpy 256]

BIGUN

***Hi Keith,

Quote

Have learned quite a bit from this thread.

We are here to serve.

Jerry Baumchen

PS) Now, start teaching that young daughter about this stuff; she might just make a bundle & really take care of you in your old age.

Jerry, you have no idea. This new generation growing up in a world where STEM is pushed hard to young ladies is something to see. Her capacity to look at things and figure out how to take them apart and put them back together is astounding. Computers are a breeze, programming is boring.. She says she wans to be a mechanical engineer. I told her "You can do what you want as long as I never see you with wrenches around my Harley."

"Errrr dad I managed to get it apart but I am having trouble putting it back together....."

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[BIGUN 1,051]

That's my big fear!!!!

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[billvon 2,394]

>Printable paper thin solar panels

The amorphous (i.e. non-crystalline) panels I have seen are around 8% efficient - which means that a car with 2m^2 surface area will generate, at most, about 160 watts. These might be better than that but I tend to doubt it.

Compare that to crystalline cells that are pushing 25%, and which would give you 500 watts in the same area.

[billvon 2,394]

Update - I was just at a solar conference, and at least one company (Eterbright) is now up to 15% efficiency on CIGS panels, which are a form of thin film panel. So that becomes more possible. Not quite as good as crystalline at 25% but getting there.