Getting stable after cut away - Altitude?

[jaitken 0]

Quote

>Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible
>reserve over the tail situation.

Has this ever happened?

Harry Parrish was killed in an incident that involved a dislodged reserve handle:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3636210;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Obviously, the student grabbing the floating handle was a contributing factor in that case, but yes, it has happened. I am not qualified to debate whether this makes the D-ring type of handle better or worse, just answering the question.

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--Mario Andretti

[Muffie 0]

Quote

Quote

>Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible
>reserve over the tail situation.

Has this ever happened?

Bill, this has happend. With a fatal result as well. While preparing for the AFF jump on the door, the student pulled by accident the instructor's D-handle... I think I read about that incident on this site.

I tried to find the incident yesterday - was definitely posted on here and talked about within the last three years - but I am crap at using the search function on here. As I recall, the instructor had a loose reserve handle, the student reached out to grab it to help put it back in or let him know(?), ended up pulling the handle, reserve deployed and impact with the tail of the plane killed the instructor.

[Divalent 89]

I believe this is what you were looking for:

http://www.dropzone.com/fatalities/Detailed/445.shtml

[Ron 7]

Quote

I have seen at least 2 (possibly 3) metal D-handles dislodged on climb-out.

I saw two soft handles dislodge just last year (one was mine)

Worse, I had a cutaway handle tuck under the MLW. This will not happen with a metal handle.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Ron,

Quote

handle tuck under the MLW. This will not happen with a metal handle.

About 20 yrs ago it actually did happen to an instuctor at the Sheridan, OR dz.

Somehow ( ) during the jump, the reserve handle rotated ( and that portion of the MLW also rotated ) under the MLW. He missed it on his first attempt, after a cutaway w/o RSL, but stayed cool-headed and got it on the 2nd attempt.

JerryBaumchen

[Muffie 0]

Yep, that was the one. Thanks! Looks like the discussion of the incident has another video of a handle dislodged at the door that wasn't fatal, but hard to tell what kind of handle. I'd assume also a metal handle.

[obelixtim 100]

I would be very cautious about this issue, because it could influence a lot of inexperienced people who dont know any better.

It would be interesting to know how many people world wide have been killed over the years because they tried to get stable before pulling their reserve and running out of time.

I would wager that it would be quite a lot.

Back in the days the rule was simple. Cutaway then pull the reserve, do NOT worry about stability, because its really stupid hitting the ground stable with your reserve still packed. Get something out is still a valid adage.

I still think this is a sound policy to follow and would result in more lives saved than lost.

As for handles that cant be found....get rid of them.

Bouncing because you dont want linetwists.....

Really stupid reasons to die.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Back in the days the rule was simple. Cutaway then pull the reserve, do NOT worry about stability, because its really stupid hitting the ground stable with your reserve still packed. Get something out is still a valid adage.

Way back when, we also didn't have high wingloadings that would result in such violent spins. The canopies could still have spinning mals, but they were a lot less severe. Just another reason that I stick with a low wingload.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

I would be very cautious about this issue, because it could influence a lot of inexperienced people who don't know any better.

It would be interesting to know how many people world wide have been killed over the years because they tried to get stable before pulling their reserve and running out of time.

I would wager that it would be quite a lot.

Back in the days the rule was simple. Cutaway then pull the reserve, do NOT worry about stability, because its really stupid hitting the ground stable with your reserve still packed. Get something out is still a valid adage.

I still think this is a sound policy to follow and would result in more lives saved than lost.

As for handles that cant be found....get rid of them.

Bouncing because you don't want line-twists.....

Really stupid reasons to die.

Can't argue with the points you make, but lets try to keep some of these things in perspective.

Tools like the RSL and Skyhook are additional safety measures that work as advertised in most circumstances, and have saved lives.

I would never try to discourage someone from using an RSL given they understand it's not necessarily the safest option in ALL circumstances...on that same note, I wouldn't tell someone that deploying a reserve unstable is better than stable.

Yes, of course it's better than going in...but let's remember 30 years ago many D license holders started their deployments at 2000', it took two hands and a couple of steps to cutaway, then ya went looking for the reserve handle.
We werent planting people in vast numbers because (i believe anyway) there was much more emphasis on altitude awareness.

These days, most people are pulling AT LEAST 1000' higher, with systems that operate much easier and reserves that open quicker...they are however in much more crowded skies and usually on canopies that spin up quite radically in comparison to the docile canopies of old. And let's not forget when a square opens with a problem, (other than line twist) it more often than not gets worse...if you're heads up, keep to your hard deck and perform your EP's in a timely manner, there is nothing wrong with giving yourself the best possible chance for a clean reserve deployment.

If you're not always altitude aware, consistent with your EP's, or for any number of other reasons not confident that you can give your reserve pilot-chute a stable platform from which to launch, then by all means use whatever you feel gives you the greatest odds of survival.

However let's too not look down our noses at competent jumpers that have or will, make the informed choice regarding control over when they deploy their last chance.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

Back in the days the rule was simple. Cutaway then pull the reserve, do NOT worry about stability, because its really stupid hitting the ground stable with your reserve still packed. Get something out is still a valid adage.

Way back when, we also didn't have high wingloadings that would result in such violent spins. The canopies could still have spinning mals, but they were a lot less severe. Just another reason that I stick with a low wingload.

...and actually, I was taught that stability was extremely important when deploying a reserve.

Especially when mounted on the front of you.

We were drilled ad nauseum on how to get/be stable (ie. body position) during the cutaway procedure, helping to insure the cleanest launch for a second/LAST parachute deployment.

Yes...don't ever pass your second hard deck working on it, but when and if at all possible, nothing wrong with doing it right.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[obelixtim 100]

Quote

...and actually, I was taught that stability was extremely important when deploying a reserve.

Especially when mounted on the front of you. Wink

And relatively easy with a belly wart....simply putting feet together prior to the cutaway usually did the trick.....

Notwithstanding all the points about wingloadings, spinning etc, the basic point I was making was quite straightforward.

Its not a good idea to sacrifice altitude for stability.

That basic rule still holds true. Accidents happen when rules and procedures become ambiguous......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[danornan 64]

Quote

" ...if you're heads up, keep to your hard deck and perform your EP's in a timely manner, there is nothing wrong with giving yourself the best possible chance for a clean reserve deployment."

reply]
This is not a personal slam as I hear the same from many experienced skydivers:

The problem with this philosophy is that EVERYONE thinks that THEY are exceptional, above normal and can deal with all emergencies. All kids are exceptional, all drivers are better than average..... etc...

The reality is that most of us are average and normal. More skydivers die by not doing anything after a cutaway then die from bad body position when the reserve opens.

Way too many are in denial !

Dano

• Quote

[wmw999 2,116]

That is exactly why I do use an RSL. I've pulled my reserve an embarrassing number of times; I'm quite confident I can do so. But, ya know -- I figure that if other smart people can futz with a broken main for too long, or cut away a little lower than they intended to, well, I probably can too.

And the RSL is insurance against my making that mistake. Nothing more, nothing less. I've made others, I'm sure I'm capable of making that one under the right circumstances.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jsaxton 0]

Fuck getting stable, I'd rather kick out of reserve line twists than burn in!

[danornan 64]

Quote

That is exactly why I do use an RSL. I've pulled my reserve an embarrassing number of times; I'm quite confident I can do so. But, ya know -- I figure that if other smart people can futz with a broken main for too long, or cut away a little lower than they intended to, well, I probably can too.

And the RSL is insurance against my making that mistake. Nothing more, nothing less. I've made others, I'm sure I'm capable of making that one under the right circumstances.

Wendy P.

Wendy - A voice of reason! I just wish that more skydivers would listen to you and not to those who keep looking for the exception.

You too Jeff -

"Fuck getting stable, I'd rather kick out of reserve line twists than burn in!"

Dano

[Ron 7]

Quote

Wendy - A voice of reason!

You only say that because they agree with YOUR personal views.

I guess you would claim that I am somehow not reasonable????

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[danornan 64]

Quote

Quote

Wendy - A voice of reason!

You only say that because they agree with YOUR personal views.

I guess you would claim that I am somehow not reasonable????

Of course! :-)

So why not go with the overwhelming odds? There are a few reasons to not use an RSL like camera or crew, but these are the exceptions. I guess this is why I don't buy lottery tickets and rarely gamble. The odds just aren't in my favor.

Dano

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

There are a few reasons to not use an RSL like camera or crew, but these are the exceptions.

That is simply not correct.

Even Bill Booth has expressed his dissatisfaction with the conventional RSL, and not just because it didn't extract the reserve. There are other reasons to not want an RSL. It is a trade-off of trusting your ability to pull the reserve, and not wanting to have it pulled for you at what may be the wrong time. There are many scenarios where that may happen.

I do not encourage newbies to disconnect their RSL, but please don't assert that camera and CRW are the only valid reasons to not want one.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,380]

>Even Bill Booth has expressed his dissatisfaction with the conventional RSL

And John Sherman has expressed his dissatisfaction with one-pin reserves and one-sided RSL's. And Jo Smolders has expressed his dissatisfaction with the Cypres. And here's a shocker - DZ's that offer only AFF often express dissatisfaction with static line training!

RSL's save lives far, far more often than they put them at risk. The moderate number of deaths that could have been prevented by RSL's pales in comparison to the large number of deaths that _were_ avoided, although we rarely hear about them. There are very few valid reasons not to use them - and again, these reasons are exceptions.

There are also a lot of people who do not like them for subjective personal or philosophical reasons, and that's fine too; they can use whatever they like. They are not objectively valid reasons though.

[DocPop 1]

Quote

That is simply not correct.

Even Bill Booth has expressed his dissatisfaction with the conventional RSL, and not just because it didn't extract the reserve. There are other reasons to not want an RSL. It is a trade-off of trusting your ability to pull the reserve, and not wanting to have it pulled for you at what may be the wrong time. There are many scenarios where that may happen.

I do not encourage newbies to disconnect their RSL, but please don't assert that camera and CRW are the only valid reasons to not want one.

There are few people with more of a vested interest in getting people to move away from the conventional RSL than BB!

Could you please list the other valid reasons for disconnecting an RSL? That would really help us newbies in making an informed decision.

Thanks.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wmw999 2,116]

Reasons I can think of:
1. Regularly jumping in windy conditions where you might have to cut away to stop being dragged (because if it's windy, you probably won't remember to undo your RSL before landing)
2. Concern about opening-time congestion, and the possibility that you will run into another jumper after cutting away (i.e. while reserve is deploying). If you don't open right away, then you maybe can clear your air.
3. Concern about stability after opening. With a small, high performance main some people think that an immediate reserve pull will lead to line twists (note: I've had a spinning mal and had my RSL-deployed reserve open just fine).
4. Concern about a riser failure or cutaway cable failure causing the reserve to deploy without the main having been completely cut away.

Those are what I can think of off the top of my head, apart from CRW & camera. I don't know about wingsuit.

For me, I decided that the incidence of people not getting to their reserve in time seemed to exceed all of the others combined (i.e. fatalities therefrom). So that's why I have an RSL. As mentioned in another thread, on my reserve, a line twist is a lot more survivable than nothing out.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DocPop 1]

Thanks for the answers, Wendy. I don't really see any of them as valid reasons for disconnecting something which is a proven life-saver.

Quote

Reasons I can think of:
1. Regularly jumping in windy conditions where you might have to cut away to stop being dragged (because if it's windy, you probably won't remember to undo your RSL before landing)

I would rather be dragged than bounce, and someone experienced enough to be jumping in winds that strong really should be heads-up enough to disconnect the RSL after opening.

Quote

2. Concern about opening-time congestion, and the possibility that you will run into another jumper after cutting away (i.e. while reserve is deploying). If you don't open right away, then you maybe can clear your air.

I don't (and won't) jump big-ways but it seems to me that a better answer than disconnecting the RSL would be to track better (ie. get horizontal separation) so there is nobody below you when/if you get a mal. Maybe I am missing something on this one as it is outside my experience.

Quote

3. Concern about stability after opening. With a small, high performance main some people think that an immediate reserve pull will lead to line twists (note: I've had a spinning mal and had my RSL-deployed reserve open just fine).

I reference all the other posts which talk about reserve line-twists vs. going in trying to get stable.

Quote

4. Concern about a riser failure or cutaway cable failure causing the reserve to deploy without the main having been completely cut away.

Riser failure - removing a safety device is not a good answer to poor gear maintenance. Cutaway failure - as above (if the cable fails) and bad luck if you just don't pull far enough, but still not valid reasons in my opinion.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wmw999 2,116]

All of those can be in the shit-happens category, and not due to poor planning, just as not opening your reserve after cutting away can be in the shit-happens category, rather than due to poor planning.

You don't always get to choose what shit happens. And you don't always get to choose the time and place of your mistakes. So, well, you understand the gear, understand the situations, and make the best decision you can for yourself.

For me, personally, I put an RSL onto my rig after I'd been back jumping a year or two (I took 13 years off after my first 1000 jumps). First thing I did after starting again was take it off. Then after reading some fatality reports, I put it back on. I've had 2 cutaways with it, and no problems with the reserve opening.

Data point of one person.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DocPop 1]

I have nowhere near your experience, but I did the same. I took it off when I moved to an HP canopy, and then put it back on after reading about various incidents.

I agree with your "shit happens" comment. You just have to go with what will work best with the likely shit vs the unlikely shit!

For me (with no cutaways to my name), I want a reserve our even if I don't pull the reserve handle. I may live (or die) to regret that decision....watch this space!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Reasons I can think of:
1. Regularly jumping in windy conditions where you might have to cut away to stop being dragged (because if it's windy, you probably won't remember to undo your RSL before landing)
2. Concern about opening-time congestion, and the possibility that you will run into another jumper after cutting away (i.e. while reserve is deploying). If you don't open right away, then you maybe can clear your air.
3. Concern about stability after opening. With a small, high performance main some people think that an immediate reserve pull will lead to line twists (note: I've had a spinning mal and had my RSL-deployed reserve open just fine).
4. Concern about a riser failure or cutaway cable failure causing the reserve to deploy without the main having been completely cut away.

Wendy P.

That's a good list (especially #2 & 4). I'm not so concerned about stability before using my reserve as both of my canopies are large, and I've always pulled immediately after cutting away. I am not concerned about my ability to pull my reserve, but I do however want to have the option to delay without fumbling for to pull on a little red tab. I realize that given the experience of skydivers on the whole, that I'm more likely to fail at pulling reserve than face a situation where I'd wish I didn't have one. I'm OK with that trade-off, as I'd rather fail myself at pulling my own reserve than have the misfortune of one of the other scenarios do me in, and of course I have great confidence at my own ability to pull my metal handle. I also have the std (large) 3 rings to help make the cutaway easy with the one hand on each handle method.


I'd add to Wendy's list that the RSL shackle is a snag hazard, and scenarios of a main departing past a reserve will put that snag hazard into play. Also an RSL can and has been involved with a premature deployment while exiting.

I know it is a trade-off of risks. I just put a weighting factor on the different aspects that is different than others. That sort of trade is done in many ways, such as the choice to jump high wingloading (and swoop), which I consider much more dangerous than the choice for an experienced jumper to go without RSL.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am