Ron 7 #51 September 6, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's a brilliant statement. It could be on... could be off.. No one knows??? Its a HUGE risk if you are rendered unconscious on exit or in freefall. An AAD that is off or will not fire will not kill you. It just will not save you. That is a BIG difference. I'd rather not have an AAD than have one that will misfire at altitude. Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPARENTLY YOU MISSED THE RECALL??? and my previous response stating that I was happy with how the issues was handled. As soon as the static issue was discovered, ALL units were recalled. I received a replacement in a month. You must have missed the fact that they tried to ignore the peoblem and never answered the question about the DeLand fire. You also must have missed the fact that it took many more fires to admit that they was a problem...And then they said it was not a danger...(Again ignoring the DeLand in air fire.). AFTER several fires they finaly did admit a problem...Too little to late. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great you don't want to be a test dummy. Then sit back and watch what happens to those of us who do. Ask us questions, we will answer them for you. If you don't have the personal experience with the product that someone like I has--you have no place trashing it. Any evidence YOU have to offer is nothing more than hearsay. Hey, if guys like me have no business saying what we think...Feel free to go jump a NOVA till it kills you personally. I think you would be wise listen more than opening your mouth and saying others don't have a clue. I have seen MANY new toys not work as instructed...And a few of those have killed people. But feel free to have the newest toys...If you die from it you will be my next example of why new guys should listen more and speak less. I of course hope you don't die...but atleast you would serve as a good bad example. Have fun...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #52 September 7, 2004 QuoteAn AAD that is off or will not fire will not kill you. It just will not save you. That is a BIG difference. Failing to fire when it is expected to pretty much means someone dies. Firing when it should not only introduces the posibility if it happens at the wrong time/place. So yes, there is a difference, But not the way you are thinking. QuoteHey, if guys like me have no business saying what we think...Expressing your opinion is great. However, libeling a product you have no personal experience with is not cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #53 September 7, 2004 Quote In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- An AAD that is off or will not fire will not kill you. It just will not save you. That is a BIG difference. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Failing to fire when it is expected to pretty much means someone dies. Firing when it should not only introduces the posibility if it happens at the wrong time/place. So yes, there is a difference, But not the way you are thinking. Very simple. An AAD that does not fire does not kill someone. It will not SAVE them, but that does not ADD to the danger. An AAD that misfires ADDS to the danger and can kill someone. An AAD that misfires is MORE dangerous than a brick placed into a reserve container. One could kill you, the other just will not save you. QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey, if guys like me have no business saying what we think... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Expressing your opinion is great. However, libeling a product you have no personal experience with is not cool. Who said I don't have experience with it? I may not have one, but I have seen one misfire (Actually maybe not a misfire), personally know a rigger hat was blamed for doing something wrong that caused a fire by Vigil (and I really DOUBT that he screwed up...If you knew him you would agree), I have a buddy that SAW the DeLand fire (That they still have not explained). So I have plenty of experience with them. I didn't need to have a NOVA collapse on me to know that they will. I don't need to bounce to know it will kill me. I may not have PERSONAL experience with the device...But I have plenty of experience with the device, and devices like it. AAD's I have used: FXC, Sentinal, ASTRA, CYPRES1, CYPRES2. In this sport it is better to be careful than just accept what the makers, sellers, and sponsored people say about a product....You will live longer that way. Hey, I hope the Vigil comes around...But in my opinion they have been less than forthcoming about the problems they have had. They have tried to ignore the issue, blame others, and STILL have not said anything about the in air fire in DeLand. That in my opinion is a bad way to do business."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #54 September 7, 2004 Quote Failing to fire when it is expected to pretty much means someone dies. Firing when it should not only introduces the posibility if it happens at the wrong time/place. So yes, there is a difference, But not the way you are thinking. This is getting rediculous. You're either trolling, or really need to talk to someone experienced on the matter. An AAD is your last line of defence if EVERYTHING goes wrong, so you should'nt exaclty be depending on it to save you, rather depend on yourself first! If it's not turning on, it would be stupid to assume that it is activated. Listen to and try to understand what Ron said, he's making much more sense than you have been. An activation in the door/in the plane/in freefall actually has potential to kill you and OTHERS, whereas a brick in your container doesn't. Neither will save you, but that's far from the issue here. Take the airbag example. If it misfires without an accident, it probably will create one. If you never have an accident, you may just as well have had a blanket in there, but the airbag never posed a danger to you. Nadine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #55 September 8, 2004 Not trolling, and don't appreciate the accusation that I am. Personal attacks are not appropriate. I'm just very happy with my vigil and quite honestly cannot understand the hostility toward from someone that doesn't even jump one... Or people that expect it to do things it was not designed to. If I am ever rendered unconscious or physically unable to pull, I will depend on my AAD to save my life. That's why I bought it, and would be the only time it is used. My work load has just skyrocketed and I'm tired of dealing with the spin going on here. Blue skies Ron and Blueshrew.... I'll debate this with you another day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueshrew 0 #56 September 8, 2004 Well it's not exactly designed to misfire, but apparently it does anyway... So there you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #57 September 8, 2004 QuoteTake the airbag example. If it misfires without an accident, it probably will create one. Bad analogy. The airbag in your steering wheel is always directed at you when you are driving and you'd have a great problem to continue when it pops while it shouldn't. The pilotchute that leaves when your AAD misfires is - in all likelyhood - directed at a lot of empty sky. A worn out PC-pocket would scare me as much yet I'm sure someone, somewhere is jumping with one - accompanied by others. It is not as if any happy Vigil jumper is pointing a loaded gun towards any fool that dares to jump with him. Parachuting had the potential to kill me and others since I started - what else is new? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #58 September 8, 2004 Well at least it is positive Vigil hired a rigger. Succes, try to convince me to buy your product. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #59 September 8, 2004 QuoteThe pilotchute that leaves when your AAD misfires is - in all likelyhood - directed at a lot of empty sky. and an AAD that fires while I am on the video step is going kill me and possibly anyone still in the aircraft. Misfires are just not acceptable for an AAD. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #60 September 8, 2004 QuoteMisfires are just not acceptable for an AAD Then dont jump with anyone that has one 'cause AAD's will misfire. Might as well avoid the following features in your vicinity: 1. Worn Velcro on bridles 2. Too short reserve cables/end of the reserve cable neatly tucked away inside the velcro that holds the handle 3. Loose PC pockets 4. Worn main loops 5. Loose main loops They too are known to have caused premature deployments in / around the door / on the step. All possible life threatening. Dont see no crusade against them though. Possibly because those are often in the 'domain' of the individual jumper. *) Manufacturer bashing is much easier and much more rewarding. After all they are in it for the money, while all others are chasing the holy grail... *) Sorry - I forgot. Most of the kids nowadays pay five bucks to their packers and wouldn't recognise the above features even if they stumbled over them... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #61 September 8, 2004 QuoteWell it's not exactly designed to misfire, but apparently it does anyway... So there you go. Then you should reconsider jumping any AAD. Ever been witness to a mid-air misfire? I have. So there you go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #62 September 9, 2004 Quote2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. By reading the Airtec Service Bulletin, which states the batch numbers and DOMs of affected units, and it also states that the units only have bad displays yet still operate normally and would fire if need be. The Bulletin was out a week after the problem turned up. Bad subcontractor batch addressed openly and straight away... I can't see a bad thing with this, as no life would have been endangered. QuoteAirtec said don't worry it will be ok. It had to go back to Germany.Sounds contradictory. Did they say it was safe to jump or "It's okay, send it back"? If they said "send it back", then QuoteNo further investigation. sounds not necessarily believable. How do you know? (I'm not saying your post is not believable)The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #63 September 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteMisfires are just not acceptable for an AAD Then dont jump with anyone that has one 'cause AAD's will misfire. Might as well avoid the following features in your vicinity: 1. Worn Velcro on bridles 2. Too short reserve cables/end of the reserve cable neatly tucked away inside the velcro that holds the handle 3. Loose PC pockets 4. Worn main loops 5. Loose main loops Yes I once (2 years ago) refused to jump with a video (while doing tandem) because the videoman planned to jump a piece of shit. Loose loop, worn velcro etc in a C206. After a short discussion the videoman agreed to jump my rig that weekend. Brought his rig to the rigger and a week later the problem was solved. Additional advantage of using my rig was the pressence of a Cypres instead of nothing. Accidents might happen, but accidents caused by equipment can be largely avoided by at least: 1) Select your equipment carefully. 2) Proper maintenance Greetings Ton ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #64 September 9, 2004 Quotethe videoman planned to jump a piece of shit. Loose loop, worn velcro etc in a C206 Wow - thrillseeker! It is not a good idea regardless of the airplane, but especially in a C206 (cargo-door) you want your equipment "airtight". Proximity to the tail while in the door, backward centre of G, etcetera... In Rotterdam a couple of years ago the C 206 was left tailless after a premature deployment. (reserve pin came out / not AAD related) Quoteaccidents caused by equipment can be largely avoided by at least: 1) Select your equipment carefully. 2) Proper maintenance Hear hear !!! Shield your AAD against static electricity! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #65 September 9, 2004 Quoteit also states that the units only have bad displays yet still operate normally and would fire if need be How do they know it will work? Can they guarentee it? The unit that went from 0-9999- Airtec said it should work normally. However they didn't even know what the problem was. I'm glad they know it will but they had no idea what was wrong. The owner decided not to use it, ( would you jump a unit that zeroed at 9999? I wouldn't) but the US service center couldn't fix it, so it went to Germany. We never received an answer to what was wrong. I guess that's a better way of put it than no further investigation. The rigger contacted them again to see about the final conclusion, they said you shouldn't have any more problems, but nothing about the issue at hand. Again I'm not saying the Cypres is a bad unit. I'm just pointing out that they have had a lot of issues just like Vigil. If you don't like the product, don't buy it. It also irritates me how people say they won't get on a plane/ jump if someone's got a Vigil. Do they feel the same about people with an FXC? I personally have seen a two of misfires with that at 3000'. just food for thought. Blue ones D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #66 September 9, 2004 QuoteIt also irritates me how people say they won't get on a plane/ jump if someone's got a Vigil. Do they feel the same about people with an FXC? Have people actually said that? I have never heard that. Besides most of the problems seem to be created by static...so in theory the only danger is during deployment, or packing on carpet. On deployment I hope I am not near you, and if you rig fires while you are packing...Its not a dnager unless it pops someone in the head (I have seen that...it's pretty funny)."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #67 September 10, 2004 Quote[ Hear hear !!! Shield your AAD against static electricity! Please clarify. how do you do that? AAD is electrical equipment for aerospace use and shall be qualified according to Aerospace EMI requirements. Which can not be compared with automotive requirements. Military aerospace EMI requirements are the most severe in the industry. As an aerospace engineer I will buy the AAD that follows this specs. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #68 September 10, 2004 QuotePlease clarify. how do you do that? By putting a small sleeve of grey material over the control unit of your cypres 1? (Yes Ton, I know - that issue has been solved since all affected cypres1 units should have gone through the four year maintenance by now. But that wasn't the point. I fail to see why I should put unlimited trust in the established company that had issues in the past which they didn't always adress according to the high standards of the average DZ-com user and be extremly cautious for the new company that want's to move into this market. That market - in case you hadn't noticed - has been effectivly monopolized by the aforementioned established company. Now they have a good product, but it is ridiculously expensive if you see it as a part of the complete skydiving equipment and compare it with f.i. 'safety gadgets' in cars - which never make up 20% of the total price of the car. Could it be that lack of competition has something to do with that? I would love to own the only company in the world that builds air bags and have all governing authorities make airbags mandatory in all cars worldwide... Nobody in his right mind would think that to be a good idea - even if it is an excellent airbag...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #69 September 10, 2004 Rigs and cars are not comparable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #70 September 10, 2004 I do not see why to put trust in a company for the purpose of having a competitor in the market. VIGIL does not offer me any advantages over AIRTEC. I stay with the company having most experience in the field. Hey, I'm a skydiver. You expect me to have a car with "safety-devises"? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #71 September 10, 2004 If unlimited lifetime, no factory maintenance, 3 working modes in one device, one free cuter shipped with a new device so what is an advantage for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #72 September 10, 2004 QuoteIf unlimited lifetime, no factory maintenance, 3 working modes in one device, one free cuter shipped with a new device so what is an advantage for you? 1) No device has an unlimited lifetime.VIGIL does not know the lifetime yet. They expect it to be 15 years 2) No maintenance foreseen at the moment (while the company has no experience in AAD's) 3) Why do I need different modes. I only need it for my solo-rig and I'm not planning to do tandems or student jumps with a stiletto 107. 4) A cypres also has a cutter when purchased. I'm not planning to use the cutter. If I need to use it I don't care about buying a new one. Advantages I'm looking for: 1) Better technology (simple design for example) 2) Significant lower purchase price 3) Reliability I'm sorry but I'm an aerospace engineer and we like to use proven technology for safety critical applications ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #73 September 10, 2004 Quote1) No device has an unlimited lifetime.VIGIL does not know the lifetime yet. They expect it to be 15 years 2) No maintenance foreseen at the moment (while the company has no experience in AAD's) 3) Why do I need different modes. I only need it for my solo-rig and I'm not planning to do tandems or student jumps with a stiletto 107. 4) A cypres also has a cutter when purchased. I'm not planning to use the cutter. If I need to use it I don't care about buying a new one. All great points. I don't really see the benefit for an AAd that can be a tandem AAD, Student or Expert. I don't normlally pull out my tandem CYPRES and take it on a sport jump or vice versa. So while that might be a benefit for a school...For the average jumper its not a real bonus. QuoteAdvantages I'm looking for: 1) Better technology (simple design for example) 2) Significant lower purchase price 3) Reliability I would only change the order. 1. Reliable...Its not worth a thing if it can kill you with a misfire, or it wil not work when needed. 2. Price...I like to jump and have other toys. 3. Better tech....as long as its reliable...I don't care how "cool" or advanced it is. But I agree with everything else."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #74 September 10, 2004 QuoteI don't really see the benefit for an AAd that can be a tandem AAD, Student or Expert. In theory, it should make a unit cheaper to bring to the market: only 1 item to manufacture, test, stock. A company can take this aving and do what it wants with it: re-invest it in R&D, lower the end user price, make more profit, etc... Its an advantage, but I agree with you, on a technical level, as a end user, its no big deal.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #75 September 10, 2004 Yeah I have heard that from a few people, probably because we were having the gear discussions WAY after the beer light came on. There was also a guy (on this thread) who mentioned the danger of a misfire if on the step. It's not really saying he wouldn't be on the plane, but in a twisted way it somewhat conveys that. QuoteIts not a dnager unless it pops someone in the head (I have seen that...it's pretty funny). Speaking of getting wacked in the face, I was packing a Mirage this weekend and my pull-up cord broke as I was putting my last temp-pin in. Got me right in the kisser. You would have laughed... D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
