BlueEyedMonster 0 #26 August 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteWhat's the big deal? Getting a Cypres I wet is bad mojo too. But the Vigil claims to be water resistant like the Cypres II, correct? Marketing lingo ladies and gentleman.. Water RESISTANT is not Water PROOF. The difference between the two is huge. Considering the gentleman in the swooping contest more than likely submerged his rig and then never took out the vigil to dry out.... That would require a water PROOF AAD. Neither Cypress or Vigil is water proof. I've been jumping my Vigil since April. No issues. I love it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #27 August 31, 2004 I've seen a rig go for a swim as the swooper swam out of the pond and the reserve was barely damp. The container soaked up the water, but inside the reserve container it was mostly dry.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #28 August 31, 2004 QuoteLast weekend I was standing beside a Vigil-equipped rig that got wet during a swooping competition. All of a sudden the reserve pilot chute comes shooting out all by itself. So no, thank you, .... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are unfairly criticizing Vigil. Basically you are criticizing every AAD made before Cypres 2, and I doubt if Cypres 2 would survive your criticism. Cypres 2 is only promised to be water proof to a maximum depth of 15 feet, for a maximum of 15 minutes. Every other maker of every other AAD says that wet AADs should be removed from service, dried and inspected before returning to service. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites blueshrew 0 #29 August 31, 2004 I'm not really sure were I am unfairly critisizing anything. What you replied to is a fact that happened about a meter away from where I was standing. And the rig hadn't gone swimming, it just got wet, an it hadn't been lying there all that long either. Besides, 15 minutes to 15 feet is more than any swooper will need (under normal pond or competition conditions). 15 or even 7 minutes is a LONG time to get someone out of the water unless you have really bad organization (which of course some do but hopefully most don't). I remember Vigil claiming it was water proof or resistant when it was first marketed and spamming newsgroup readers. Seems they took that back. But firing because it's damp is seriously rediculous. I hope it does become stable at some point, but until then it's a terrible option IMHO. But everyone is responsible for their equipment and safety, so if you can live with the misfire cases and all that, good for you to be supporting something new. For myself, I am going for something that has a proven low (by far) malfunction rate if any at all. But as someone else said the credibilty of sales people and some others leaves a lot of doubt. Happy to spread rumours about their competitors, but calling things people saw with their own 2 eyes rumours is seriously weird. That is what I would call unfair! Nadine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 0 #30 August 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat's the big deal? Getting a Cypres I wet is bad mojo too. But the Vigil claims to be water resistant like the Cypres II, correct? Don't think so. From their website: "Water resistance VIGIL® will be available soon." But also: Electronic Unit Sealing Ring for water resistance upon request The swooper in question certainly thinks his Vigils should be water-resistant............ Hopefully the rest IS... This one's going back to the manufacturer... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chrisky 0 #31 September 1, 2004 QuoteWhen other AAD's have problems, there is nobody who talking about it. Is it because they are 12 or 15 years on the market. Awww, poor AAD. This is just not true. Cypres misfires are reported and watched just as closely by the community. Everybody knows a batch of Cypres 2s had an issue with the display. Apart from that, i have yet to hear of any documented Cypres 2 misfires. Astras' FXCs are well known for their inaccuracies under certain circumstances, yet reliable within certain parameters (or so i hear, never used one, but still see them around). Maybe critique is not as loud because Airtec has a very good record of misfire research and issue adressing (Like publishing the exact batch numbers affected etc.)Call it rumor control, if you wish). As far as i am concerned, DeLand Majik are using Vigils, and they may be happy with them, but to my record (which may not be accurate, of course) there is still a 3k in-air misfire (that happened in DeLand) that nobody knows why it happened. If AAD does not feel they need to address this or label it a rumor they don't need to cope with, it's their decision. To me it shows that they don't mind about what potential customers get to hear in the market. Unsubstanciated rumors can easily be addressed with facts. If one chooses to not invalidate rumors by presenting facts, but rather to not care about rumors, i think there might not be facts available to inavlidate them (even if there probably are). And it's a serious underestimation of the importance of word of mouth in skydiving. Of course, the version mess around beta/pre-series/series but prototype software/whatnot units and personell differences during the launching stages of the product were not helpful in building a reputation. Neither was the instruction to just rerout the cutter to not cut the loop on the static line service bulletin. And an attribute like water resistance being available soon is not an asset (referring to the website here). That's just smoke screen. It will be once available. Not fair? Maybe, but i'm a potential customer, so do better and convince me. I'm not a believer, i have to be convinced. Convince me that your product is superior to the other one with 12 years of field experience, and you will get my money. I don't want to take chances on a lifesaving device.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #32 September 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteLast weekend I was standing beside a Vigil-equipped........ .......Cypres 2 is only promised to be water proof to a maximum depth of 15 feet, for a maximum of 15 minutes. Every other maker of every other AAD says that wet AADs should be removed from service, dried and inspected before returning to service. NO AAD is waterProof! Airtec's website states the following of a Cypress2: QuoteWater resistant: up to 15 minutes at depth of 15 feet http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Frameset_engl_products.htm Its in a frame, Click the models link on the right. The thought that certain AAD's are water proof is a misconception. It is the responsibility of a jumper to know the limitations of his/her equipment. When it says water resistant, you don't leave it in a water logged rig after going for a swim. You thank your lucky stars its water resistant, pull it out, and dry it out. If you don't the consequences are your responsibility and no one elses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 4XTTTOM 0 #33 September 1, 2004 Hello Hello, I guess i started a verry hot discussion here. And yes i agree as a sales manager it is verry difficult to walk on a straight line. But let me tell you a litlle about myself. I am verry sceptic after 21 years of skydiving and traveling around the world. I jumped the other AAD for many years and i bought the new one untill the people of AAD-VIGIL asked me to work for them. First i said NO, because i was verry sceptic. But after a few talks and a good study of their product i said OK. Because i could believe in it. It was an innovation in the AAD world. First there was the monopoly, then there was the 3 different units Expert, Student, Tandem. and of course there was the price. But the main reason why i took this job was that i believed in this product after seeing all the specifications. And it is true Deland Majik and the french 4 and 8 Way are jumping the VIGIL, for a company thats a verry good publicity. But that is MARKETING. I like the way you all discus VIGIL. It means that there is something going on. Believe me i have seen a lot of things during 21 years of skydiving and there is nobody out there who is a bigger sceptic than myself. I know there will be always people who are pro and contra. But i would like to say this to all of you. Come and visit us at one of our roadshows that we will do this winter in Europe. Or if you want to know all about and you are from the US please contact our office in Deland. It will be a pleasure to help you and answer all your questions. Tom - VIGIL AAD www.vigil.aero [email protected]George Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites indiana 0 #34 September 2, 2004 Dear Tom, With reference to the article of Nadine (blueshrew, Aug 30, 2004, 11:10 AM) and the various replies on her message, your quote as being the Sales Manager of VIGIL AAD really struck me: Quote“We never have said that the VIGIL units are waterproof or resistant”. You’re wrong. You should consult your own company’s website: www.vigil.aero, choose downloads and User Manual v2.0.2. It says clearly on Page 18: 4.1 box “The case is equipped with two positive locking connectors, two integrated bronze filters and a stainless steel closing screw. The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” While you’ll find on Page 19: 4.2 powerpack “It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance.” You are not the only one who is misinformed as many dealers have been mislead about the water resistance. For instance: http://www.skydivejersey.net: chooses shop-bestsellers-06. Vigil) It is "Water resistant" to a limited degree. The Vigil is conceived in such a way that it resists a long time to any water infiltrations thanks to its bronze filter and its aluminum alloy box. http://www.tso-d.com/Vigil.htm:The Vigil General Assets: • Water resistant This latest misfire is once more a serious issue. The rig seems to have been wet in such a limited degree that the skydiver in question even saw no reason to dry the reserve immediately. The Vigil was not supposed to fire and yet it did! This means that AAD’s statement “a certain amount of resistance to water” is actually another untruthful statement, making the Vigil AAD unfit for use in humid conditions. What scares me most is that when an error has been determined a Vigil seems to activate instead of switching itself off, as it is supposed to do. (Even at ground level.) At April 5 2004, AAD’s Managing Director Mr. Jo Smolders (your boss) wrote in a statement that was published on the USPA Website the following: “A Vigil must fire only when necessary” (http://www.uspa.org) choose news/ notices/ equipment bulletins/ all Vigils to be replaced/ view the explanation) I am really interested to hear what the excuse for this activation this time is going to be…. Blue skies, Indiana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 4XTTTOM 0 #35 September 2, 2004 Hello Indiana, First i would like to say that you do not know anything of the relationship between me and Mr. Smolders. Second there is nobody not even Mr.Smolders who has command over me. My so called BOSS, is a man with a lot of talents, but controlling me is difficult. I do my thing and i believe in VIGIL 150%. Like you wrote “a certain amount of resistance to water” is not 100% waterproof or resistant. And we have never promised 100%. waterproof or resistance. For the POWERPACK it is true that It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance. FOR THE POWERPACK INDIANA. Or do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. Maybe we can do this in FLEMISCH. I just have a name and no nickname or are you affraid for a face off. I would not like to be a coward. You can always phone me you can always email me or come to one of our roadshows this winter. Just let people do their work and let their be a fair competition. Tom AAD-VIGILGeorge Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites indiana 0 #36 September 2, 2004 Dear Tom, First let me congratulate you with the remarkable improvement of your English since your former message. QuoteFirst i would like to say that you do not know anything of the relationship between me and Mr. Smolders. Second there is nobody not even Mr.Smolders who has command over me. My so called BOSS, is a man with a lot of talents, but controlling me is difficult. I do not recall that I ever mentioned anything about the relationship between you and Mr Smolders otherwise than he being your boss neither that he was controlling you. So stop putting up a smokescreen and let’s just stick to the facts OK? Quote“a certain amount of resistance to water” is not 100% waterproof or resistant. And we have never promised 100%. waterproof or resistance. For the POWERPACK it is true that It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance. FOR THE POWERPACK INDIANA. Once again read your own manual page 18 in which is stated: The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” This is mentioned UNDER 4.1 BOX and NOT UNDER 4.2 POWERPACK TOM! I was never challenging the product because it is not 100% water resistant but this thing seems already to activate when it only smells water. Therefore I remain to my statement that the phrase “a certain amount of resistance to water” is untrue and the least misleading! QuoteOr do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. KAREL? I am anonymous on this forum. I hereby do state however that in real live my name is not Karel. I recommend you to be careful by guessing after people’s names or why they wish to do so anonymously. FYI There are many more people concerned about the Vigils “safety” record than just this Karel. Once again let’s go back to the facts OK? FACT: 1. The activation of a Vigil at 3000 ft (during the opening sequence of the main canopy) (1st generation Vigil and still waiting for an answer) 2. An error in the control unit of a Vigil in use in Slovenia. (2nd generation Vigil) 3. A Vigil switching itself off during the jump or in the plane, also in Slovenia (2nd generation Vigil) 4. A Vigil that just won’t switch on even when the battery has been unplugged and plugged in again. 5. A Vigil that suddenly activates after the rig has been exposed to a very limited amount of water. Out of these 5 incidents, 3 were potential killers (fact 1, 3 & 5) and 4 out of 5 were with the 2nd generation Vigil (2,3,4 & 5). QuoteJust let people do their work and let their be a fair competition. As in "Don’t mention the facts, just shut up?" Happy landings, INDIANA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Shark 0 #37 September 2, 2004 QuoteI am anonymous on this forum. I hereby do state however that in real live my name is not Karel. I recommend you to be careful by guessing after people’s names or why they wish to do so anonymously. Anonymity does not support credibility. Having the balls to reveal your identity is a step in the right direction. Otherwise, take your arguments to PMs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 4XTTTOM 0 #38 September 3, 2004 I think somebody is doing a hate campaign. But it is ok and it is also ok that you stay unknow like you wish. And yes i think this guy is somebody i know and i think to know the reason why he wants to be unknow. But all that is Bulls...t. The facts are that there are people who are jumping VIGIL and the are happy with it. And if there are problems with units please let us know. Then we will tell what was wrong. We do NOT want to hide behind cheap excuses. AAD-VIGIL will give you probably the best aftersales service there is. If you want to know all about it please contact us. www.vigil.aero For INDIANA happy to discus with you face to face. Give me a call. Al wie doet wat hij kan is een eerlijk man. Tom AAD-VIGILGeorge Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #39 September 3, 2004 QuoteFACT: 1. The activation of a Vigil at 3000 ft (during the opening sequence of the main canopy) (1st generation Vigil and still waiting for an answer) 2. An error in the control unit of a Vigil in use in Slovenia. (2nd generation Vigil) 3. A Vigil switching itself off during the jump or in the plane, also in Slovenia (2nd generation Vigil) 4. A Vigil that just won’t switch on even when the battery has been unplugged and plugged in again. 5. A Vigil that suddenly activates after the rig has been exposed to a very limited amount of water. Out of these 5 incidents, 3 were potential killers (fact 1, 3 & 5) and 4 out of 5 were with the 2nd generation Vigil (2,3,4 & 5). FACT: the Cypres has had many of the same issues. 1. My brother had an original Cypres fire on the ground after taking a dip in a swoop pond. Cypres said "you shouldn't have gotten it wet." No further investigation. 2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. 3. The Master rigger on our dz had a unit that instead of counting down from 9999' to 0 it did the opposite. Airtec said don't worry it will be ok. It had to go back to Germany. No further investigation. 4. As I posted earlier, I sold a Cypres2 that would not turn on, I was sent a new unit for my customer. No further investigation. 5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? So two of the five problems are with the second generation cypres. but you don't hear anyone saying shit (except Ron) about the cypres2. Many of these problems could have been life threatening I'm not saying that the Vigil hasn't had some problems, but so has every other aad manufacturer. D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #40 September 3, 2004 Quote1. My brother had an original Cypres fire on the ground after taking a dip in a swoop pond. Cypres said "you shouldn't have gotten it wet." No further investigation. CYPRES1 does not say it is "water resistant"....So that is a valid answer. Quote2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. Quote3. The Master rigger on our dz had a unit that instead of counting down from 9999' to 0 it did the opposite. Airtec said don't worry it will be ok. It had to go back to Germany. No further investigation. Yeah, but they did something about it....Funny though. Quote4. As I posted earlier, I sold a Cypres2 that would not turn on, I was sent a new unit for my customer. No further investigation. They replaced the unit...I also bet that they did look at it. Both 3 and 4 are problems with individual units...Not a great sign. But not an indicator of a larger problem. Quote5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. QuoteSo two of the five problems are with the second generation cypres. but you don't hear anyone saying shit (except Ron) about the cypres2 If nothing I am fair. QuoteMany of these problems could have been life threatening Which ones? 1. Should not get a non water proof unit wet...I know 12 year olds that understand that water messes with electric stuff 2. Not having the control unit read out work is not good. But it would not missfire and kill someone. 3. Again, not good, but it was one unit...(I still find it kinda funny....I might have kept it and had people tunr my unit on and see if they notice.) And we don't know if it would not work...But it might not have fired either...So it would not be fatal. 4. A unit that will not turn on will not kill you. 5. I can't think of a single in air fire due to static...I do remember several ground fires...But then again Airtec scrambled to fix it as soon as it was seen...Vigil did not. That is my issue with Vigil vs Airtec. Airtec was pretty quick to see a problem and fix it. (I thought the "silver sleeve" was pretty gay, but it seemed to have worked). Vigil seems to have tried to hide its problems. They would not be the first company to try and hide a defect...But in this small sport it does not work well. QuoteI'm not saying that the Vigil hasn't had some problems, but so has every other aad manufacturer. True...I can name a bunch of failed AAD's if ya like. But the true test of any skydiving product is time. Vigil in my opinion is not a wise purchase yet. If it were the only modern AAD out there. I would say it *might* be worth the risk...But the CYPRES2 has a good lead with the original CYPRES. That being said...I didn't run out and buy a CYPRES until 1994 three years after I had been jumping. And I am just now thinking a CYPRES2 is OK. I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history. I do hope they get better. I do hope they are proven to be safe. I like competition. But I hate unproven, possibly unsafe products more....time and only time will tell if the Vigil is safe. Until then I choose not to be a test jumper."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites indiana 0 #41 September 3, 2004 Dear Tom, I prefer to call it an information campaign instead of a hate campaign. You are right: Making a point of me being anonymous is Bull…t. The subject here is not who I am. The subject is that the Vigil has problems and that questions are not answered. QuoteAnd if there are problems with units please let us know. Then we will tell what was wrong. Other Vigil product representatives wrote that too… I take a pick out of several unanswered questions: 1. The Vigil activation at 3000ft in Deland? 2. The Vigil activation at Z. Hills and the ground activation of the same unit after the repack? QuoteWe do NOT want to hide behind cheap excuses That means, with reference to question 2, I do not want to hear that Terry Pike pinched a wire while closing the box thus caused a misfire! QuoteAl wie doet wat hij kan is een eerlijk man. A Flemish expression, free translated as: “All who does what he can is an honest man.” It is the honesty so-far I have some problems with. Indiana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Praetorian 1 #42 September 3, 2004 names or no names, I don't care.. as my cypres 1 comes to the end of its life in the next few years I'm looking at the Cypres2 and vigil.. as it stands (FROM THIS TREAD ALONE) Vigil has UNRESOLVED issues I don't care that the Cypres1 or Cypres2 HAD any of these same Issues when I look to buy a new AAD I only want one which no longer HAS any known issues if I had to buy today it would be a USED cypres1 with some years left .. then a cypres 2 and a distant 3rd is a Vigil (though I like the product its not for me yet) ANSWER the specific issues, saying people have them and like them means nothing as I have yet to need my cypres, and it has yet to misfire .. it might as well be a brick, totally inert and I'd still be happy with it .. my satsfaction with my unit MEANS NOTHING, has no value ... its real value is in reputation and that when issues have been found they have been resolved. ANSWER THE ISSUES with the VIGIL test the units prove they are safe and these incidents were random one offs, or use them to idenify a defect and FIX it .. or vigil will suffer the same fate as every other major AAD that has challenged the Cypres.. either match the cypres, or beat it at its own game, fall short of that and the vigil will die, I'm in favor of competetion as it makes the products better, but you have to compete, match the safety, find the flaws (if they are there) show that there are no flaws by explaining the incidents .. or vigil will die that simple Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,391 #43 September 3, 2004 >You are right: Making a point of me being anonymous is Bull Often, people who prefer to remain anonymous have a reason to do so, such as a conflict of interest (i.e. they work for another manufacturer) history (i.e. they have been injured by the product and want 'revenge' or something) credibility (i.e. they often do things like this) or connections (i.e. they want to slam a DZ but don't want to lose their job at that DZ.) That's why many people are suspicious of anonymous posters. There is no requirement here to put your name in your profile, but you should know that in the past people have used that freedom to slam other people and products without being held accountable for their statements. Hence any anonymous poster will tend not to be trusted. Keep that in mind as you decide whether to use your name or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites koz2000 1 #44 September 3, 2004 Hey Ron, I agree many of the problems are with individual units, but my point was just showing the Cypres has had issues as well. I commend you for critizing the Cypres2 as everyone else seemed to say " oh it's a cypres, it's a good thing.." At least you stay true to the two year rule. I feel as if the post I responded to had many individual unit issues as well and I want people to see that Vigil's not the only one. Hope the weather isn;t too bad in FL, ooh it's clearing here. Blue ones Dave______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites indiana 0 #45 September 4, 2004 Dear Bill, Thank you for your advice. I just make use of my right to post anonymously. Of course I have a reason to do so, however, my reason is not in your listing. Neither do I feel addressed as being amongst those who abuse the freedom of anonymous posting to slam and not want to be held accountable for any of his/her statements. An anonymous poster is not to be trusted as his or her statements are not based upon clear facts. So far did I, IMHO, only post statements of which relatively easy could be traced and checked as being correct. That I did this anonymous is an irrelevant factor. I would be more concerned about those who have no scruples in impetuously giving names to anonymous posters. Especially, as in my case, the name mentioned doesn’t even ring a bell: Quote: Or do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. Unquote (4XTTTOM, Sep 2, 2004, 8:04 AM) This comes very close to a personal attack, not even to mention a hit below the belt as the person in question is probably not even aware of this. Blue skies, Indiana P.S. This is a forum thread about a LIFE SAVING DEVICE. Instead of straight forward answers on my straight forward questions I receive only (nasty) replies about me being anonymous. However, people who are requesting for an answer and are not anonymous do not receive any answer either. That is the real issue here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meatbomb 0 #46 September 5, 2004 QuoteI just make use of my right to post anonymously. Just a wee point...this is the Internet...you have no rights. HH...now he has rights... (I wish there was a kiss ass emoticon )--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,391 #47 September 6, 2004 >This comes very close to a personal attack . . . Trying to determine the name of an anonymous poster is not a personal attack. You have the right to post here anonymously; other posters have the right to guess at what your identity is and why you are keeping it secret. If that bothers you, your options would be to reveal who you are or avoid posting anonymously in forums. >However, people who are requesting for an answer and are >not anonymous do not receive any answer either. That is the >real issue here. This is a discussion board where people discuss gear and rigging issues. We do not offer any sort of guarantee that manufacturers will read this forum and answer; we also do not guarantee the accuracy of anything posted on these forums, even from someone who claims to be an authority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlueEyedMonster 0 #48 September 6, 2004 Quote Quote2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. That's a brilliant statement. It could be on... could be off.. No one knows??? Its a HUGE risk if you are rendered unconscious on exit or in freefall. QuoteQuote5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. APPARENTLY YOU MISSED THE RECALL??? and my previous response stating that I was happy with how the issues was handled. As soon as the static issue was discovered, ALL units were recalled. I received a replacement in a month. Quote I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history.Great you don't want to be a test dummy. Then sit back and watch what happens to those of us who do. Ask us questions, we will answer them for you. If you don't have the personal experience with the product that someone like I has--you have no place trashing it. Any evidence YOU have to offer is nothing more than hearsay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverton 0 #49 September 6, 2004 Well it's a free world. you can buy the unit you want. I'll buy a Cypres 2!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kris 0 #50 September 6, 2004 "Limited" personal experience is one thing, but this isn't a cheap altimeter we're talking about. I follow Ron's line of thought on this one. And I say limited because, let's face it, you haven't been in the sport very long. No offense. Personally, I don't like the way Vigil has handled some of their past issues. Too little, too late. Luckily, I have a Cypress mark-1 that's still good for 8 more years. Plenty of time to see how things pan out in the AAD market. I'll keep with the 2-year rule for major components (AAD's, containers, reserves). If I want something bad enough, it's worth waiting for to see how well it actually works in the field.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
blueshrew 0 #29 August 31, 2004 I'm not really sure were I am unfairly critisizing anything. What you replied to is a fact that happened about a meter away from where I was standing. And the rig hadn't gone swimming, it just got wet, an it hadn't been lying there all that long either. Besides, 15 minutes to 15 feet is more than any swooper will need (under normal pond or competition conditions). 15 or even 7 minutes is a LONG time to get someone out of the water unless you have really bad organization (which of course some do but hopefully most don't). I remember Vigil claiming it was water proof or resistant when it was first marketed and spamming newsgroup readers. Seems they took that back. But firing because it's damp is seriously rediculous. I hope it does become stable at some point, but until then it's a terrible option IMHO. But everyone is responsible for their equipment and safety, so if you can live with the misfire cases and all that, good for you to be supporting something new. For myself, I am going for something that has a proven low (by far) malfunction rate if any at all. But as someone else said the credibilty of sales people and some others leaves a lot of doubt. Happy to spread rumours about their competitors, but calling things people saw with their own 2 eyes rumours is seriously weird. That is what I would call unfair! Nadine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #30 August 31, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteWhat's the big deal? Getting a Cypres I wet is bad mojo too. But the Vigil claims to be water resistant like the Cypres II, correct? Don't think so. From their website: "Water resistance VIGIL® will be available soon." But also: Electronic Unit Sealing Ring for water resistance upon request The swooper in question certainly thinks his Vigils should be water-resistant............ Hopefully the rest IS... This one's going back to the manufacturer... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #31 September 1, 2004 QuoteWhen other AAD's have problems, there is nobody who talking about it. Is it because they are 12 or 15 years on the market. Awww, poor AAD. This is just not true. Cypres misfires are reported and watched just as closely by the community. Everybody knows a batch of Cypres 2s had an issue with the display. Apart from that, i have yet to hear of any documented Cypres 2 misfires. Astras' FXCs are well known for their inaccuracies under certain circumstances, yet reliable within certain parameters (or so i hear, never used one, but still see them around). Maybe critique is not as loud because Airtec has a very good record of misfire research and issue adressing (Like publishing the exact batch numbers affected etc.)Call it rumor control, if you wish). As far as i am concerned, DeLand Majik are using Vigils, and they may be happy with them, but to my record (which may not be accurate, of course) there is still a 3k in-air misfire (that happened in DeLand) that nobody knows why it happened. If AAD does not feel they need to address this or label it a rumor they don't need to cope with, it's their decision. To me it shows that they don't mind about what potential customers get to hear in the market. Unsubstanciated rumors can easily be addressed with facts. If one chooses to not invalidate rumors by presenting facts, but rather to not care about rumors, i think there might not be facts available to inavlidate them (even if there probably are). And it's a serious underestimation of the importance of word of mouth in skydiving. Of course, the version mess around beta/pre-series/series but prototype software/whatnot units and personell differences during the launching stages of the product were not helpful in building a reputation. Neither was the instruction to just rerout the cutter to not cut the loop on the static line service bulletin. And an attribute like water resistance being available soon is not an asset (referring to the website here). That's just smoke screen. It will be once available. Not fair? Maybe, but i'm a potential customer, so do better and convince me. I'm not a believer, i have to be convinced. Convince me that your product is superior to the other one with 12 years of field experience, and you will get my money. I don't want to take chances on a lifesaving device.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #32 September 1, 2004 QuoteQuoteLast weekend I was standing beside a Vigil-equipped........ .......Cypres 2 is only promised to be water proof to a maximum depth of 15 feet, for a maximum of 15 minutes. Every other maker of every other AAD says that wet AADs should be removed from service, dried and inspected before returning to service. NO AAD is waterProof! Airtec's website states the following of a Cypress2: QuoteWater resistant: up to 15 minutes at depth of 15 feet http://www.cypres.cc/Sites/englisch/Frameset_engl_products.htm Its in a frame, Click the models link on the right. The thought that certain AAD's are water proof is a misconception. It is the responsibility of a jumper to know the limitations of his/her equipment. When it says water resistant, you don't leave it in a water logged rig after going for a swim. You thank your lucky stars its water resistant, pull it out, and dry it out. If you don't the consequences are your responsibility and no one elses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4XTTTOM 0 #33 September 1, 2004 Hello Hello, I guess i started a verry hot discussion here. And yes i agree as a sales manager it is verry difficult to walk on a straight line. But let me tell you a litlle about myself. I am verry sceptic after 21 years of skydiving and traveling around the world. I jumped the other AAD for many years and i bought the new one untill the people of AAD-VIGIL asked me to work for them. First i said NO, because i was verry sceptic. But after a few talks and a good study of their product i said OK. Because i could believe in it. It was an innovation in the AAD world. First there was the monopoly, then there was the 3 different units Expert, Student, Tandem. and of course there was the price. But the main reason why i took this job was that i believed in this product after seeing all the specifications. And it is true Deland Majik and the french 4 and 8 Way are jumping the VIGIL, for a company thats a verry good publicity. But that is MARKETING. I like the way you all discus VIGIL. It means that there is something going on. Believe me i have seen a lot of things during 21 years of skydiving and there is nobody out there who is a bigger sceptic than myself. I know there will be always people who are pro and contra. But i would like to say this to all of you. Come and visit us at one of our roadshows that we will do this winter in Europe. Or if you want to know all about and you are from the US please contact our office in Deland. It will be a pleasure to help you and answer all your questions. Tom - VIGIL AAD www.vigil.aero [email protected]George Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #34 September 2, 2004 Dear Tom, With reference to the article of Nadine (blueshrew, Aug 30, 2004, 11:10 AM) and the various replies on her message, your quote as being the Sales Manager of VIGIL AAD really struck me: Quote“We never have said that the VIGIL units are waterproof or resistant”. You’re wrong. You should consult your own company’s website: www.vigil.aero, choose downloads and User Manual v2.0.2. It says clearly on Page 18: 4.1 box “The case is equipped with two positive locking connectors, two integrated bronze filters and a stainless steel closing screw. The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” While you’ll find on Page 19: 4.2 powerpack “It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance.” You are not the only one who is misinformed as many dealers have been mislead about the water resistance. For instance: http://www.skydivejersey.net: chooses shop-bestsellers-06. Vigil) It is "Water resistant" to a limited degree. The Vigil is conceived in such a way that it resists a long time to any water infiltrations thanks to its bronze filter and its aluminum alloy box. http://www.tso-d.com/Vigil.htm:The Vigil General Assets: • Water resistant This latest misfire is once more a serious issue. The rig seems to have been wet in such a limited degree that the skydiver in question even saw no reason to dry the reserve immediately. The Vigil was not supposed to fire and yet it did! This means that AAD’s statement “a certain amount of resistance to water” is actually another untruthful statement, making the Vigil AAD unfit for use in humid conditions. What scares me most is that when an error has been determined a Vigil seems to activate instead of switching itself off, as it is supposed to do. (Even at ground level.) At April 5 2004, AAD’s Managing Director Mr. Jo Smolders (your boss) wrote in a statement that was published on the USPA Website the following: “A Vigil must fire only when necessary” (http://www.uspa.org) choose news/ notices/ equipment bulletins/ all Vigils to be replaced/ view the explanation) I am really interested to hear what the excuse for this activation this time is going to be…. Blue skies, Indiana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4XTTTOM 0 #35 September 2, 2004 Hello Indiana, First i would like to say that you do not know anything of the relationship between me and Mr. Smolders. Second there is nobody not even Mr.Smolders who has command over me. My so called BOSS, is a man with a lot of talents, but controlling me is difficult. I do my thing and i believe in VIGIL 150%. Like you wrote “a certain amount of resistance to water” is not 100% waterproof or resistant. And we have never promised 100%. waterproof or resistance. For the POWERPACK it is true that It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance. FOR THE POWERPACK INDIANA. Or do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. Maybe we can do this in FLEMISCH. I just have a name and no nickname or are you affraid for a face off. I would not like to be a coward. You can always phone me you can always email me or come to one of our roadshows this winter. Just let people do their work and let their be a fair competition. Tom AAD-VIGILGeorge Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #36 September 2, 2004 Dear Tom, First let me congratulate you with the remarkable improvement of your English since your former message. QuoteFirst i would like to say that you do not know anything of the relationship between me and Mr. Smolders. Second there is nobody not even Mr.Smolders who has command over me. My so called BOSS, is a man with a lot of talents, but controlling me is difficult. I do not recall that I ever mentioned anything about the relationship between you and Mr Smolders otherwise than he being your boss neither that he was controlling you. So stop putting up a smokescreen and let’s just stick to the facts OK? Quote“a certain amount of resistance to water” is not 100% waterproof or resistant. And we have never promised 100%. waterproof or resistance. For the POWERPACK it is true that It is submerged in epoxy to ensure total water resistance. FOR THE POWERPACK INDIANA. Once again read your own manual page 18 in which is stated: The bronze filters ensure protection against the intrusion of pollution such as dust and provides a certain amount of resistance to water.” This is mentioned UNDER 4.1 BOX and NOT UNDER 4.2 POWERPACK TOM! I was never challenging the product because it is not 100% water resistant but this thing seems already to activate when it only smells water. Therefore I remain to my statement that the phrase “a certain amount of resistance to water” is untrue and the least misleading! QuoteOr do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. KAREL? I am anonymous on this forum. I hereby do state however that in real live my name is not Karel. I recommend you to be careful by guessing after people’s names or why they wish to do so anonymously. FYI There are many more people concerned about the Vigils “safety” record than just this Karel. Once again let’s go back to the facts OK? FACT: 1. The activation of a Vigil at 3000 ft (during the opening sequence of the main canopy) (1st generation Vigil and still waiting for an answer) 2. An error in the control unit of a Vigil in use in Slovenia. (2nd generation Vigil) 3. A Vigil switching itself off during the jump or in the plane, also in Slovenia (2nd generation Vigil) 4. A Vigil that just won’t switch on even when the battery has been unplugged and plugged in again. 5. A Vigil that suddenly activates after the rig has been exposed to a very limited amount of water. Out of these 5 incidents, 3 were potential killers (fact 1, 3 & 5) and 4 out of 5 were with the 2nd generation Vigil (2,3,4 & 5). QuoteJust let people do their work and let their be a fair competition. As in "Don’t mention the facts, just shut up?" Happy landings, INDIANA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #37 September 2, 2004 QuoteI am anonymous on this forum. I hereby do state however that in real live my name is not Karel. I recommend you to be careful by guessing after people’s names or why they wish to do so anonymously. Anonymity does not support credibility. Having the balls to reveal your identity is a step in the right direction. Otherwise, take your arguments to PMs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4XTTTOM 0 #38 September 3, 2004 I think somebody is doing a hate campaign. But it is ok and it is also ok that you stay unknow like you wish. And yes i think this guy is somebody i know and i think to know the reason why he wants to be unknow. But all that is Bulls...t. The facts are that there are people who are jumping VIGIL and the are happy with it. And if there are problems with units please let us know. Then we will tell what was wrong. We do NOT want to hide behind cheap excuses. AAD-VIGIL will give you probably the best aftersales service there is. If you want to know all about it please contact us. www.vigil.aero For INDIANA happy to discus with you face to face. Give me a call. Al wie doet wat hij kan is een eerlijk man. Tom AAD-VIGILGeorge Diotme Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #39 September 3, 2004 QuoteFACT: 1. The activation of a Vigil at 3000 ft (during the opening sequence of the main canopy) (1st generation Vigil and still waiting for an answer) 2. An error in the control unit of a Vigil in use in Slovenia. (2nd generation Vigil) 3. A Vigil switching itself off during the jump or in the plane, also in Slovenia (2nd generation Vigil) 4. A Vigil that just won’t switch on even when the battery has been unplugged and plugged in again. 5. A Vigil that suddenly activates after the rig has been exposed to a very limited amount of water. Out of these 5 incidents, 3 were potential killers (fact 1, 3 & 5) and 4 out of 5 were with the 2nd generation Vigil (2,3,4 & 5). FACT: the Cypres has had many of the same issues. 1. My brother had an original Cypres fire on the ground after taking a dip in a swoop pond. Cypres said "you shouldn't have gotten it wet." No further investigation. 2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. 3. The Master rigger on our dz had a unit that instead of counting down from 9999' to 0 it did the opposite. Airtec said don't worry it will be ok. It had to go back to Germany. No further investigation. 4. As I posted earlier, I sold a Cypres2 that would not turn on, I was sent a new unit for my customer. No further investigation. 5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? So two of the five problems are with the second generation cypres. but you don't hear anyone saying shit (except Ron) about the cypres2. Many of these problems could have been life threatening I'm not saying that the Vigil hasn't had some problems, but so has every other aad manufacturer. D______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #40 September 3, 2004 Quote1. My brother had an original Cypres fire on the ground after taking a dip in a swoop pond. Cypres said "you shouldn't have gotten it wet." No further investigation. CYPRES1 does not say it is "water resistant"....So that is a valid answer. Quote2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. Quote3. The Master rigger on our dz had a unit that instead of counting down from 9999' to 0 it did the opposite. Airtec said don't worry it will be ok. It had to go back to Germany. No further investigation. Yeah, but they did something about it....Funny though. Quote4. As I posted earlier, I sold a Cypres2 that would not turn on, I was sent a new unit for my customer. No further investigation. They replaced the unit...I also bet that they did look at it. Both 3 and 4 are problems with individual units...Not a great sign. But not an indicator of a larger problem. Quote5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. QuoteSo two of the five problems are with the second generation cypres. but you don't hear anyone saying shit (except Ron) about the cypres2 If nothing I am fair. QuoteMany of these problems could have been life threatening Which ones? 1. Should not get a non water proof unit wet...I know 12 year olds that understand that water messes with electric stuff 2. Not having the control unit read out work is not good. But it would not missfire and kill someone. 3. Again, not good, but it was one unit...(I still find it kinda funny....I might have kept it and had people tunr my unit on and see if they notice.) And we don't know if it would not work...But it might not have fired either...So it would not be fatal. 4. A unit that will not turn on will not kill you. 5. I can't think of a single in air fire due to static...I do remember several ground fires...But then again Airtec scrambled to fix it as soon as it was seen...Vigil did not. That is my issue with Vigil vs Airtec. Airtec was pretty quick to see a problem and fix it. (I thought the "silver sleeve" was pretty gay, but it seemed to have worked). Vigil seems to have tried to hide its problems. They would not be the first company to try and hide a defect...But in this small sport it does not work well. QuoteI'm not saying that the Vigil hasn't had some problems, but so has every other aad manufacturer. True...I can name a bunch of failed AAD's if ya like. But the true test of any skydiving product is time. Vigil in my opinion is not a wise purchase yet. If it were the only modern AAD out there. I would say it *might* be worth the risk...But the CYPRES2 has a good lead with the original CYPRES. That being said...I didn't run out and buy a CYPRES until 1994 three years after I had been jumping. And I am just now thinking a CYPRES2 is OK. I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history. I do hope they get better. I do hope they are proven to be safe. I like competition. But I hate unproven, possibly unsafe products more....time and only time will tell if the Vigil is safe. Until then I choose not to be a test jumper."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #41 September 3, 2004 Dear Tom, I prefer to call it an information campaign instead of a hate campaign. You are right: Making a point of me being anonymous is Bull…t. The subject here is not who I am. The subject is that the Vigil has problems and that questions are not answered. QuoteAnd if there are problems with units please let us know. Then we will tell what was wrong. Other Vigil product representatives wrote that too… I take a pick out of several unanswered questions: 1. The Vigil activation at 3000ft in Deland? 2. The Vigil activation at Z. Hills and the ground activation of the same unit after the repack? QuoteWe do NOT want to hide behind cheap excuses That means, with reference to question 2, I do not want to hear that Terry Pike pinched a wire while closing the box thus caused a misfire! QuoteAl wie doet wat hij kan is een eerlijk man. A Flemish expression, free translated as: “All who does what he can is an honest man.” It is the honesty so-far I have some problems with. Indiana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #42 September 3, 2004 names or no names, I don't care.. as my cypres 1 comes to the end of its life in the next few years I'm looking at the Cypres2 and vigil.. as it stands (FROM THIS TREAD ALONE) Vigil has UNRESOLVED issues I don't care that the Cypres1 or Cypres2 HAD any of these same Issues when I look to buy a new AAD I only want one which no longer HAS any known issues if I had to buy today it would be a USED cypres1 with some years left .. then a cypres 2 and a distant 3rd is a Vigil (though I like the product its not for me yet) ANSWER the specific issues, saying people have them and like them means nothing as I have yet to need my cypres, and it has yet to misfire .. it might as well be a brick, totally inert and I'd still be happy with it .. my satsfaction with my unit MEANS NOTHING, has no value ... its real value is in reputation and that when issues have been found they have been resolved. ANSWER THE ISSUES with the VIGIL test the units prove they are safe and these incidents were random one offs, or use them to idenify a defect and FIX it .. or vigil will suffer the same fate as every other major AAD that has challenged the Cypres.. either match the cypres, or beat it at its own game, fall short of that and the vigil will die, I'm in favor of competetion as it makes the products better, but you have to compete, match the safety, find the flaws (if they are there) show that there are no flaws by explaining the incidents .. or vigil will die that simple Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #43 September 3, 2004 >You are right: Making a point of me being anonymous is Bull Often, people who prefer to remain anonymous have a reason to do so, such as a conflict of interest (i.e. they work for another manufacturer) history (i.e. they have been injured by the product and want 'revenge' or something) credibility (i.e. they often do things like this) or connections (i.e. they want to slam a DZ but don't want to lose their job at that DZ.) That's why many people are suspicious of anonymous posters. There is no requirement here to put your name in your profile, but you should know that in the past people have used that freedom to slam other people and products without being held accountable for their statements. Hence any anonymous poster will tend not to be trusted. Keep that in mind as you decide whether to use your name or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koz2000 1 #44 September 3, 2004 Hey Ron, I agree many of the problems are with individual units, but my point was just showing the Cypres has had issues as well. I commend you for critizing the Cypres2 as everyone else seemed to say " oh it's a cypres, it's a good thing.." At least you stay true to the two year rule. I feel as if the post I responded to had many individual unit issues as well and I want people to see that Vigil's not the only one. Hope the weather isn;t too bad in FL, ooh it's clearing here. Blue ones Dave______________________________________________ - Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #45 September 4, 2004 Dear Bill, Thank you for your advice. I just make use of my right to post anonymously. Of course I have a reason to do so, however, my reason is not in your listing. Neither do I feel addressed as being amongst those who abuse the freedom of anonymous posting to slam and not want to be held accountable for any of his/her statements. An anonymous poster is not to be trusted as his or her statements are not based upon clear facts. So far did I, IMHO, only post statements of which relatively easy could be traced and checked as being correct. That I did this anonymous is an irrelevant factor. I would be more concerned about those who have no scruples in impetuously giving names to anonymous posters. Especially, as in my case, the name mentioned doesn’t even ring a bell: Quote: Or do i have to say KAREL. Please be honest with yourself and just say who you are. Is it because you don't want to be known in the outside world. Unquote (4XTTTOM, Sep 2, 2004, 8:04 AM) This comes very close to a personal attack, not even to mention a hit below the belt as the person in question is probably not even aware of this. Blue skies, Indiana P.S. This is a forum thread about a LIFE SAVING DEVICE. Instead of straight forward answers on my straight forward questions I receive only (nasty) replies about me being anonymous. However, people who are requesting for an answer and are not anonymous do not receive any answer either. That is the real issue here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #46 September 5, 2004 QuoteI just make use of my right to post anonymously. Just a wee point...this is the Internet...you have no rights. HH...now he has rights... (I wish there was a kiss ass emoticon )--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,391 #47 September 6, 2004 >This comes very close to a personal attack . . . Trying to determine the name of an anonymous poster is not a personal attack. You have the right to post here anonymously; other posters have the right to guess at what your identity is and why you are keeping it secret. If that bothers you, your options would be to reveal who you are or avoid posting anonymously in forums. >However, people who are requesting for an answer and are >not anonymous do not receive any answer either. That is the >real issue here. This is a discussion board where people discuss gear and rigging issues. We do not offer any sort of guarantee that manufacturers will read this forum and answer; we also do not guarantee the accuracy of anything posted on these forums, even from someone who claims to be an authority. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #48 September 6, 2004 Quote Quote2. Many Cypres2's control units didn't work, and did not show a display so you didn't know if it was on or off. If the display in the control unit doesn't work how do you know if is going to work. We had an example of this at our dz. Yep, and the soultion to do nothing about it was stupid. However, it was not a risk. That's a brilliant statement. It could be on... could be off.. No one knows??? Its a HUGE risk if you are rendered unconscious on exit or in freefall. QuoteQuote5. Remember the "silver sleeve?" Wasn't that due to the same static problem that vigil encountered? Yes, but thay admitted a problem and fixed it as fast as they could. Vigil tryed to not admit a problem. APPARENTLY YOU MISSED THE RECALL??? and my previous response stating that I was happy with how the issues was handled. As soon as the static issue was discovered, ALL units were recalled. I received a replacement in a month. Quote I don't think its wise to be a test dummy for new products. Vigil in my eyes is still a new product with a shakey history.Great you don't want to be a test dummy. Then sit back and watch what happens to those of us who do. Ask us questions, we will answer them for you. If you don't have the personal experience with the product that someone like I has--you have no place trashing it. Any evidence YOU have to offer is nothing more than hearsay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverton 0 #49 September 6, 2004 Well it's a free world. you can buy the unit you want. I'll buy a Cypres 2!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #50 September 6, 2004 "Limited" personal experience is one thing, but this isn't a cheap altimeter we're talking about. I follow Ron's line of thought on this one. And I say limited because, let's face it, you haven't been in the sport very long. No offense. Personally, I don't like the way Vigil has handled some of their past issues. Too little, too late. Luckily, I have a Cypress mark-1 that's still good for 8 more years. Plenty of time to see how things pan out in the AAD market. I'll keep with the 2-year rule for major components (AAD's, containers, reserves). If I want something bad enough, it's worth waiting for to see how well it actually works in the field.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
