Icon Containers- HELP

[johndoe345 0]

Looking to purchase a new container. I was thinking about Aerodyne's new Icon. I am a little nervous since it is brand new. Does anyone out there have one or have been able to use one? Any thoughts are welcome.

[piisfish 135]

we have a couple of them at our DZ, everyone seems happy with them.
the best would be to try and find one to try by yourself to see if you like it or not.

P.S. would be nice to fill in more completely your profile.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[diablopilot 2]

It's a very well thought out design.

The Icon is comfortable with almost all the options you could want included in the base price. The only cost options include:

-Hackey or Freefly handle
-RSL
-Soft Reserve Handle.

Everything else, from articulation to stainless, kill line P/C to secondary riser covers is included.

Some small growing pains were realized in the initial release, but experience has fixed any issues. A truley nice container and when paired with Aerodyne's reserve and Mains makes a tidy little system at an atractive price.

If I needed another rig (Yeah right! I have 3 and a 4th on the way) I would put it on my list of canidates.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

Have you looked at RWS?

Quite honestly, my next rig will be a RWS Vector Micron with a Skyhook. Simply due to the quality of the rig and the Skyhook.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[pilotdave 0]

Isn't the icon heavily based on the atom legend? I dunno how much is similar, but the icon isn't a completely new design right?

Dave

[AggieDave 6]

There's quite a few folks that would argue that the only new designs are RWS and Sunpath, everything else is some sort of copy.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

And there are some that would argue that there is nothing new under the sun.

As for RWS and Sunpath? I really don't want to wait 18 to 26 weeks for two of the most expensive rigs out there.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[NightJumper 0]

With Rantoul around the corner if you can, you should go as all of the top gear manufactures will be there. Also several thousand skydivers that would be more than happy to give you their opinion.

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

As for RWS and Sunpath? I really don't want to wait 18 to 26 weeks for two of the most expensive rigs out there.....

Well, I jump a Sunrise Rigging's Wings, but I've heard more then a few riggers argue that it is a Jav that's been cross breed with a Mirage that was born of a Vector. If you see my point.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[diablopilot 2]

Hrmmmm. Ask Henri of Wings who had a hand in designing the original Javelin......

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[FrancoR 0]

Well, i have a brand new Icon. So far i am very happy with it, nothing to complain about.

The only thing i noticed is that some skydivers start staring at the miniforce system in the plane and ask themselves what they are seeing.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[skygod7777 0]

Quote

Hrmmmm. Ask Henri of Wings who had a hand in designing the original Javelin......

i bet he may know that guy your talking about, see's him every day in the mirror

later

[GravityGirl 0]

Where are you located? Who are you? We have demos. It would be nice to see a little more about you.

There are several here at my DZ, and so far owner saticfaction is 100%. Please let me know if you have any more specific questions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[freefalle 0]

almost every gear manufacture out there has had or does have an engenieer or other employee/designer that has worked forone of the top maunfactures. Its the nature of the industry. I think that to a point all rigs are cross bread and for the most part, with a few exceptions, all rigs are of good design. Many people buy rigs out of personal preference or company loyalty or because "someone" told them one rigs is better than another. I think deleivery time is also a major factor. I jump a mirage, I like my mirage, why did I buy my mirage, well to be honest because my girlfrind worked there and I got a good deal on it. My next rig will be a vector, why? Because my girlfriend works there and I'll probably get a good deal on it.....

And AggieDave is right, there skyhook kicks ass!

[RyanofOZ 0]

I just got my new Icon in last week and put a few jumps on it. I have to say it is a great rig. I had a Vector before and like this one much better. The riser covers are bullet proof and the new design for the 3 ring and reserve free bag are great. The rig fits and looks great. I plan on posting a review after a few more jumps. My only beef is that the main d-bag is a little smaller than my old one. My riger said it was a little on the small side but will be fine. I just have to try and cram a 210 in to it so I will be sweating a lot more in the future.

Oz

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I had a Vector before and like this one much better.

Was it a vector 2 or a vector 3? BIG difference...

And what do you like about the freebag on the icon?

Dave

[riggerrob 558]

Yes folks,
Aerodyne's ICON looks a lot like Parachutes de France's ATOM because they were designed by the same guy. When Aerodyne re-organised a couple of years ago, they hired the best designers from Parachutes de France, the production people from Parachute Industries of South Africa and the best marketeers from America.
Plagarism is rampant in the parachute industry and designers frequently move on after they have established a production line.
For example, Javelin was designed by Henir P. and Mike Furry. Henri was bought out and a few years later started his own company manufacturing WINGS, a few years later, Mike Furry sold his interest in the Javelin factory and opened his own shop sewing DOLPHINs. At last count there were a total of eight factories - world wide building Javelin clones: Advance, Altico (Dolphin), Bomber (Viper), Canadian Aerosports (Genesis), Parachute Systems SA (Vortex II), Sky World (Concept), Sun Path (Javelin), Sunrise (Wings), some Russian guy, etc.

[aubsmell 0]

Looks like you have already gotten a lot of responses here, and since I don't know where you live, I'll mention a few places where you can jump one, or at least see one.

Square One Perris Ca,
Square Two Eloy AZ
Square Three, Cross Keys
Sunshine Factory, Zhills
Gravity Gear, Byron Ca
The Ranch Pro Shop, Gardiner NY

We will have Demos our at Lost Prairie, we'll be jumping them a
t Summer Fest at Skydive Chicago (even sales reps have to go to a boogie for fun sometimes) and We'll have Demos at Rantoul. So come check us out.

Email me personally if you have any specific questions about the rig. You typically get pretty good info from these forums, sometimes heavily based on opinion though, so wade carefully.

a.easterlinATaerodyne-int.com

for my opinion about rigs and engineering and originality, it is crazy, I tried to do a flow chart for all the people who work for container manufacturers who used to work at other container manufacturers, I'll try to make a short list.

Derek Thomas (of Sunpath) Worked at both Thomas Sports (the Teardrop) and was head of R&D at the Relative Work Shop. Then bought Sunpath and made improvements on the Javelin, and designed the Odyssee.

Mike Furry Designer of the first javelin, now designs and manufacturers the Dolphin. (word on the street is that when he made the first Jav he went around the DZ and picked all the good points off all the things being produced at the time and hijacked them and came up with a few little tricks of his own, and wa blam the first Jav. if you look at the harness from one of those first javs and one of the old mirages from that time, the harness looks exactly the same, exactly, and the mirage was around first (different owners than present Mirage)

Henri Pohjolaninen owner and designer of the Wings, Aided in the Original Javelin Design. (to what degree I have no idea)

Norman Girdwood (head of engineering for Sunpath) used to work for PISA and he was the chief designer of the Naro (pisa's rig) he also used to work here at Aerodyne. (helluva good guy)

Kelly Farrington (designer of the Infinity/ President of Velocity Sports), Used to Work for RWS, not sure his capacity there, but word is that he came up with the upward facing main pin cover, however he doesn't use it on the Infinity, and I've never asked him if that is true, but you never know.

Jeff Johnston (mirage designer) started working for SST (Racer), then worked for Thomas Sports (chaser and Xerox, and designed the teardrop), then he worked for the original mirage, then National Parachutes (Warp III), then he ran R&D for RWS, then he designed the new Mirage G3 and 4.

Dave Singer, used to work for Infinity (VS) now is one of the designers for Sunpath.

Michelle Auvery (Designer of the Atom), now works for Aerodyne and had a major hand in the design of the Icon.

Dom Hayhurst, former PISA engineer (military container projects) now works for Aerodyne, one of the big daddy's of the Icon.

Bill Booth seems to be one of the Grand daddy's of them all. However I firmly believer that no one has all the ideas, every one makes what they believe are improvements to existing products.

It is overly apparent to me that this is a very incestuous business indeed, and you need a degree to figure out who stole whose ideas, or who was inspired by whose ideas, and I'm sure in my little family tree I left out 15 names of people in Design positions at companies today that worked somewhere else. Not to mention all the ideas that come from end user and are passed around. Every once in a while, I get some photos from a rigger and a little explaination of what the idea is, I'm sure those guys arn't just sending those photos and emails to us. They are just trying to add to the stew.

I can tell you that there are some ideas I've seen on some rigs out there that I as a skydiver really think are great, and I'd love to see incorporated into our rig, and I think we have a few, that are unique to ours that should be industry standard. Again those are only opinions. I think more sharing will only make the sport safer, then it just comes down to ascetics, price, availability, customer support, inventory stock of spare parts (when you have a cut away), is it rigger friendly that sort of thing.

anyway, I'll stop blabbering, but I think you can see my point, any modern container is a Frankenstein of past designs, but can still be unique and original at the same time.

Ready for the pitch.....long story short.....buy an Icon


A

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[RyanofOZ 0]

I had a Vector 3. I had a problem with the riser covers coming open on it that RWS tried to fix to no avail. They didnt come open all the time, but there were enough times someone in the plane was tucking them back in that I was not happy. The leg straps were not all that comfy. Some of that is probably my own doing from years of squats resulting in larger than average legs. The Icon fits me better and didnt bruise me (yet) down there.

The reserve freebag is designed to take high speed deployments better while not taking any longer to deploy in a low speed situation. My rigger explained it was they way the lines are stowed in the bag. I personally dont know a whole lot about that but from what I hear I like that idea. I am a big boy and dont want my reserve blowing up on me if I can help it. I fly about 150mph belly to earth so I need all the help I can get.

The Vector is a great rig, and with the SkyHook I would say they make it even better. I just like the new design in some of the pieces (3 ring, freebag) and that it fits as well as it does. For the most part, as long as you are buying something remotely new, you cant go wrong. It comes down to preference.

Oz

[gjhdiver 0]

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Henri Pohjolaninen owner and designer of the Wings, Aided in the Original Javelin Design. (to what degree I have no idea)



Ready for the pitch.....long story short.....buy an Icon


A

Henri was the main designer of the Javelin. The Wings itself looks a little like the Javelin in the reserve container, but the construction of the container and harness are significantly different from the Javelin. Put the two together, and you'll see major differences in design and construction.

As for the Icon. It's got a little ways to go yet before it's proved itself a contender. Unless things have changed since I posted this, they are currently grounded in Sweden due to slipping hardware. This is the sort of thing that usually takes a year or two of public beta testing before the rig is shaken down right. All the major rigs go through this at some point. You have to ask yourself if you want to be first on the block withe the new toy.

[Mr.g 0]

I have done about 20 jumps on my Icon now.

Good points
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- As far as looks go you cant go wrong, it looks great.
- The rig sits very well.
- Rig is cypress ready (I think all new rigs are these days)
- Easy to pack, the lines stow very neatly on top of the D-Bag
- Window in bridal to show kill line (You can see easily if the pilot chute is cocked)
- Hook knife included with the container
- Stainless steel hardware
- Very good price
- Internal riser covers.
- Features the miniforce system (“This patented new system actually addresses the engineering behind the three-ring release system and effectively reduces forces on the cutaway cable by an average of approximately 35% at any given loading”)
- Great service from Aerodyne

Other (personal preference if you like this or not)
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- The reserve and cut-away handles are positioned more to the side of your body and a bit more towards the chest. On my other rig (Vortex II) the reserve and cut-away handles sit a bit lower and more to the front of my body. In my opinion this is a good thing since it is more difficult for the reserve handle to get pulled accidentally (if you like jumping with silver)
- The BOC is a bit on the tight side. Free flyers will like this.

The not so good points
---------------------------
- The rig material is softer than that of other containers. Im not sure how durable the material is. Only time will tell.
- I have read a complaint that the leg straps slip. There is now a service bulletin for this. All the new rigs have modified leg strap so this should not be problem anymore.

The bottom line
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I can recommend it.

Respect my authoritah!

[aubsmell 0]

Things have changed, there has been a Service Bulletin issued, which you can find on our web site it was too big to upload as an attachment here, but at the bottom of the ramble I inserted the verbage without instructions and pictures.

=========================
This is the sort of thing that usually takes a year or two of public beta testing before the rig is shaken down right. All the major rigs go through this at some point. You have to ask yourself if you want to be first on the block with the new toy
=========================

I agree with this, but I will contend that it is not a new kid on the block issue, the V3 had a bunch of minor issues when it first came out, when Mirage came out with the G4 was it then a new Kid on the block? or was it just a Mirage? Denote that it has also undergone many changes since it's first release. That too with the Odyssey (hense the newer ones being the K series)

As for the slippage issue, we have had two different methods, trying to make it impossible for human error to interfere. However where there are humans there is bound to be error. The new method doesn't allow for slippage. The first method wouldn't either if properly seated.

a couple of companies have had hardware issues with the same piece of hardware, the only way they would fix them is if you complained and sent them in. And they had multiple fixes for each. The company in the US that still delivers with this particular friction adapter uses a different approach then both our first and second approach to the same problem, the reason we don't use this approach is because in testing, it wasn't as strong as either our first method, nor the method we use now.

other companies have had issues and tried to brush them aside, or not issued a technical bulletin or service bulletin, you have to respect a company that will swiftly stand up and make a decision on what is best for the skydiver, as Mirage did last year with the Cape well pins.

and if you lull yourself into thinking that your completely safe because you are jumping an X and that X was safe 5 years ago, your setting yourself up to be let down, because you may not be privy to "minor" design changes that have been made between A and B.

Not saying that you shouldn't have a certain amount of intrinsic faith in skydiving gear. None of the companies are reckless in their approach, and they all strive to make good safe products and most test them thoroughly. And they are buying components that are also tested to a certain standard. How those components are utilized and by the manufacturer and implemented by the end user will always remain in question.

I like the way we have approached the problem, we have issues a service bulletin and made it an option, in Sweden it is not an option, you must have your Icon retrofitted to jump it, however we have outlined the simple specifics to have the work done by any master rigger, and if send it back to us, we will happily do the work at no charge for you.

I have had rigs from two different manufacturers with this same piece of hardware and because I keep them clean, and make sure the routing and seating is proper each time I hurl myself out of an airplane I don't feel uncomfortable in anyway with the system. There are thousands of rigs out there in service with this style friction adapter, Javelin, RWS, PDF.

either way, I hope I don't sound too defensive, as that always opens up huge cans of worms in these forums. And I'll finish with saying that I'm certainly not saying through caution to the wind and buy any old product, just educate yourself as thoroughly as possible and then make a decision. I will say that I don't just talk the talk, I jump two different Icon's every weekend, and I feel completely safe, yet I still check all my handles, my leg straps and get a pin check every single time before I leave an airplane.



Status: Optional

Identification : All Icon Harness and Containers.

Part Numbers : C12502***** C12503***** C12504*****

Background : Continued R&D into improved friction of stainless steel leg strap adapters and webbing to prevent slippage. Service Bulletin : The Icon harness leg strap consists of a single piece of type 7 webbing. To further increase friction and reduce slippage, an additional piece of type 12 webbing is added to the leg strap and the buffer described in technical bulletin TB 002 is removed. This service bulletin is considered an upgrade or improvement to the existing design in order to improve friction of the leg strap passing through the stainless steel leg strap adjuster hardware. It is pertinent that the buffer described in TB 002 is removed from the hardware once the type 12 webbing is added to the existing type 7 webbing. TB 002 of January 2004 is no longer recommended. See details below:

"Those who say it cannot be done, should not interrupt those who are doing it"

[skymiles 3]

My biggest concern with the Icon container is with the Icon logo and triangle on the center flap. They are embroidered on and very susceptible to being snagged. I’ve seen 2 new rig with only a few jumps on them and the threads of the logo are already plucked. After a year of jumping I suspect the logo will be shredded and the container will look like crap. If I ordered an Icon container, I would ask to have it without the logo and triangle. Other than that, it is well made and a great price.

Phil

[Thanatos340 1]

I have about 20 Jumps on my Icon/Pilot/Smart Rig and love it.

Positives:
Looks Great
Fits Great
Great Service from Aerodyne.
Good price
Got it in 12 weeks after order.
I have not had any problems with Leg straps slipping at all and Have not yet had the change from the service bulletin.
Mine was the first that my rigger (and most everyone else) had seen. My Rigger really liked the rig and said it was very rigger friendly and very well built.

Negatives:
Thinner Material.
No Chest Rings.

You will not be disappointed if you buy an Icon.

[gjhdiver 0]

Quote

=========================
This is the sort of thing that usually takes a year or two of public beta testing before the rig is shaken down right. All the major rigs go through this at some point. You have to ask yourself if you want to be first on the block with the new toy
=========================

I agree with this, but I will contend that it is not a new kid on the block issue, the V3 had a bunch of minor issues when it first came out, when Mirage came out with the G4 was it then a new Kid on the block?

Just for clarification. I wasn't suggesting that companies routinely place untested equipment out in the public domain for them to finish it, and I certainly don't believe this to be the issue with Icons. Although I haven't jumped one, I have looked closely at them, and the fit and construction seems very well engineered, although the aesthetics of them are not to my personal taste, (which is of course completely irrelevant).

So as you know where I'm coming from, I'm a sponsored Wings endorsee, and I've been involved with the company since the very early days. Even though we certified TSO23d with no problems, like all manufacturers, we are at the mercy of a lot of outsourced materials, such as ripcords, hardware etc. Also, the longer a piece of equipment is in the field, the more ways jumpers can invent problems to allow us to improve upon the original concepts. If we all stack up the current versions of our products againt their first iterations, the resemblances will be few if we've all being doing our jobs right.

I applaud the way the Aerodyne have handled the problem. An honest and forthright respnse to a problem goes a long way to establishing the reputation of a product.

Perhaps Bushman will let me jump one next week in Sweden. Better not let Henri see me though.