Freeflaw 0 #1 March 26, 2011 Questions: What causes pcs in tows? What factors can not be eliminated? What kind of pc in tow: 1-pin rips of bridle 2-pin pierces bridle 3-pc catastrophic structural damage 4-bridle wraps handle (failure to inflate) 5-bridle wraps skirt (failure to inflate or partial though insufficient inflation) 6-bridle wraps person 7-uncocked pc what causes it? 1- material failure 2- improper stowing of bridle and body position on opening 3- material failure 4- and 5- this type of malfunction can presumably only happen if the bridle gets behind the pc on deployment 6- your burble or your vice grip or your unstable body 7- lack of attention or bad packing 1-Can be eliminated through proper inspection 2- leave slack in between bridle and pin 4- selecte a low snag handle 4 and 5- the risk can be minimized through pc packing and throwing techniques 6- don't deploy unstable, hold on to pc or toss lazily - grab and toss in one swift, smooth and extended motion (one very experience jumper i know holds on to the pc until all the bridle makes a an arc in the wind...he swears by it) 7-pay attention, recock pc once its in the bag by pulling the kill line with foot on bag. pack your own shit, check your main system...your job! saves your life all the time as regard 4 and 5 ...check out how base packs pc's. when i pack my priority is my pc not my main...think about it... shit over your head=more time (I left out more esoteric mals like, bridle caught under main bottom flap or d-bag not attached to pc etc..) Please amend, criticize, lament, congratulate or even thank, don't care i'm spent. Go rig yourselfs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #2 March 26, 2011 8 Packing error (wrong routing of the briddle) Completely preventable, but as history shows ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #3 March 26, 2011 Nothing is completely preventable. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be in this sport. With proper care, the chance of a PCIT can be minimized. But, there are people involved. People make mistakes. And sometimes, Sh*t just happens. Random chance. That's not to say you shouldn't try, just that there is no 100%.This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #4 March 26, 2011 QuoteNothing is completely preventable. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be in this sport. With proper care, the chance of a PCIT can be minimized. But, there are people involved. People make mistakes. And sometimes, Sh*t just happens. Random chance. That's not to say you shouldn't try, just that there is no 100%. Knowing Freeflaw, I gotta applaud how he approaches questions (in real life). Asking lots of questions is how Bill Booth figured out some of the answers he's found. You're right, there is no 100% solution...but 99.5% is a lot better than say...95%, IMO. Because of these questions, gear failure has little relevance to incidents or fatalities. Freeflaw, I pack my bridle with the "French Tickler" so that the bridle routes under the container flaps and never over. This doesn't 'prevent' a PCIT, but it definitely reduces the likelihood. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #5 March 26, 2011 QuoteQuoteNothing is completely preventable. If you don't understand that, you shouldn't be in this sport. With proper care, the chance of a PCIT can be minimized. But, there are people involved. People make mistakes. And sometimes, Sh*t just happens. Random chance. That's not to say you shouldn't try, just that there is no 100%. Knowing Freeflaw, I gotta applaud how he approaches questions (in real life). Asking lots of questions is how Bill Booth figured out some of the answers he's found. You're right, there is no 100% solution...but 99.5% is a lot better than say...95%, IMO. Because of these questions, gear failure has little relevance to incidents or fatalities. Freeflaw, I pack my bridle with the "French Tickler" so that the bridle routes under the container flaps and never over. This doesn't 'prevent' a PCIT, but it definitely reduces the likelihood.[ /reply] But Bill Booth, on the Vector, recommends runing the bridal out the top, set velcro to set some slack, then over the flaps and out the bottom..... Don't know why, not argueing about it, just saying no 100% solution.....This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflaw 0 #6 March 27, 2011 I used it completely for effect...Im just wondering what causes pc's in tows beyond the "stupid mistakes"... a properly maintained, properly packed and thrown pc cannot entangle with its apex (skirt entanglements are conceivable)...what do ya think? Chance of Inversion mal can be minimized through low pro handle selection or possibly eliminated through alternative pc design? Far out man, far out...or just plain retarded...as long as I got shit over my head im happy. As to the vector bridle routing: isn't the velcro there to insure proper slack to insure that the pin does not pierce the bridle?...conceivably if you route your pin from right to left and tuck bridle into too tight under top (left and right flap) and release pc with the left shoulder really low or rolling left as you let go, then this could create said mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflaw 0 #7 March 27, 2011 id look a clown trying to fill his shoes. Footprints like swooponds. Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #8 March 27, 2011 Quote Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? That's exactly how I pack it. It's a recommended method for PPF rigs; I suspect that's where the moniker "french tickler" comes from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerpaul 1 #9 March 27, 2011 Quote As to the vector bridle routing: isn't the velcro there to insure proper slack to insure that the pin does not pierce the bridle?...conceivably if you route your pin from right to left and tuck bridle into too tight under top (left and right flap) and release pc with the left shoulder really low or rolling left as you let go, then this could create said mal. No, the velcro establishes slack to ensure that the pin can move. But you must also be sure that the pin begins to move as soon as the pilot chute applies tension to the bridle in order to avoid the situation where the bridle is sliding across the tip of the pin. The positioning of the bridle below the pin is what can create/allow a situation where the bridle starts moving before the pin does. Some pin attachments have considerable slack in them, and that slack must be below the pin to ensure that the pin moves immediately as the tension is applied to the bridle. If the slack is all below the pin, then even if the pin were to pierce the bridle, it would not lock the bridle. But if the pin pierces the bridle, and the slack then allows the bridle to move further along the pin, that's when you can lock the container shut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SStewart 13 #10 March 27, 2011 Yes Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable If you have one then you did not "prevent it"Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ufk22 32 #11 March 27, 2011 You're on the right track. Just making a point. Doing things right (not just with the PC, but with every aspect of your packing) will eliminated all of the most common causes of a PCIT. 99.999% is great. Just that you'll never hit 100% What's right? As you can see, even the rig manufacturers have more than one answer. Look at DSE. He's decided what he thinks is the proper bridle routing, even though it probably isn't what his container manufacturer recommends (unless he does jump a French container).This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jurgencamps 0 #12 March 28, 2011 Quote id look a clown trying to fill his shoes. Footprints like swooponds. Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? If you read the Vector 2 tandem manual, it is the way how to route the drogue briddle with this tandem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites -ftp- 0 #13 March 29, 2011 QuoteYes Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable If you have one then you did not "prevent it" WOW! That is a powerful statement right there. To answer the OP question NO they are not 100% preventable. However I would argue they are about 99% preventable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites thrillstalker 0 #14 March 29, 2011 Quote 8 Packing error (wrong routing of the briddle) Completely preventable, but as history shows ... So is uncocked pc, but as history shows"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #15 March 29, 2011 QuotePilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #16 March 29, 2011 QuoteQuotePilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all. Those are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #17 March 29, 2011 Quote Quote Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all. Those are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing. I personally don't believe the industry completely understands the cause of that specific malfunction. Fortunately, it's rare, and dealing with it is straightforward. While the advice given is good, I don't think it's been proven to solve the problem. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #18 March 29, 2011 QuoteThose are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing. I disagree... the jumper in question put the velcro together and had the bridle routed correctly. Fact is that sometimes crazy things that are 1/million happen. And due to that you cannot claim that "Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable" you could claim that MOST are, but that was not the claim that was made. And again, you could claim that MOST malfunctions are preventable * bad packing * bad maintenance * bad body position * bad gear selection"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 3 #19 March 29, 2011 http://vimeo.com/19921378 A few contributing factors in this one. FWIW, the rig/PC are brand new with fewer than 20 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites theonlyski 3 #20 March 29, 2011 Quotehttp://vimeo.com/19921378 A few contributing factors in this one. FWIW, the rig/PC are brand new with fewer than 20 jumps. Rig, PC both brand new, less than 20 jumps on it? Seems like your video says 'Shrunk Kill Line' Right there on the intro. Now, what the hell are they using for a kill line that has managed to shrink that far in LESS THAN 20 jumps?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #21 March 30, 2011 QuoteFact is that sometimes crazy things that are 1/million happen. I had, but lost on a 'puter hard drive blitz-out a couple of years ago, a picture of a PCIT caused by the point of the main pin getting trapped in the inspection window of a collapsible PC.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tommymiller_199 0 #22 March 30, 2011 I don't know if this is in here, but I found this on youtube. It's how Brian Germain packs his pc, and I started to as well. Pretty cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Freeflaw 0 #6 March 27, 2011 I used it completely for effect...Im just wondering what causes pc's in tows beyond the "stupid mistakes"... a properly maintained, properly packed and thrown pc cannot entangle with its apex (skirt entanglements are conceivable)...what do ya think? Chance of Inversion mal can be minimized through low pro handle selection or possibly eliminated through alternative pc design? Far out man, far out...or just plain retarded...as long as I got shit over my head im happy. As to the vector bridle routing: isn't the velcro there to insure proper slack to insure that the pin does not pierce the bridle?...conceivably if you route your pin from right to left and tuck bridle into too tight under top (left and right flap) and release pc with the left shoulder really low or rolling left as you let go, then this could create said mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflaw 0 #7 March 27, 2011 id look a clown trying to fill his shoes. Footprints like swooponds. Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #8 March 27, 2011 Quote Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? That's exactly how I pack it. It's a recommended method for PPF rigs; I suspect that's where the moniker "french tickler" comes from. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #9 March 27, 2011 Quote As to the vector bridle routing: isn't the velcro there to insure proper slack to insure that the pin does not pierce the bridle?...conceivably if you route your pin from right to left and tuck bridle into too tight under top (left and right flap) and release pc with the left shoulder really low or rolling left as you let go, then this could create said mal. No, the velcro establishes slack to ensure that the pin can move. But you must also be sure that the pin begins to move as soon as the pilot chute applies tension to the bridle in order to avoid the situation where the bridle is sliding across the tip of the pin. The positioning of the bridle below the pin is what can create/allow a situation where the bridle starts moving before the pin does. Some pin attachments have considerable slack in them, and that slack must be below the pin to ensure that the pin moves immediately as the tension is applied to the bridle. If the slack is all below the pin, then even if the pin were to pierce the bridle, it would not lock the bridle. But if the pin pierces the bridle, and the slack then allows the bridle to move further along the pin, that's when you can lock the container shut. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SStewart 13 #10 March 27, 2011 Yes Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable If you have one then you did not "prevent it"Onward and Upward! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ufk22 32 #11 March 27, 2011 You're on the right track. Just making a point. Doing things right (not just with the PC, but with every aspect of your packing) will eliminated all of the most common causes of a PCIT. 99.999% is great. Just that you'll never hit 100% What's right? As you can see, even the rig manufacturers have more than one answer. Look at DSE. He's decided what he thinks is the proper bridle routing, even though it probably isn't what his container manufacturer recommends (unless he does jump a French container).This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #12 March 28, 2011 Quote id look a clown trying to fill his shoes. Footprints like swooponds. Do you mean your route it under left and right, (before closing) out from under left and right flap up to pin and then back down and stow excess regularly? If you read the Vector 2 tandem manual, it is the way how to route the drogue briddle with this tandem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #13 March 29, 2011 QuoteYes Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable If you have one then you did not "prevent it" WOW! That is a powerful statement right there. To answer the OP question NO they are not 100% preventable. However I would argue they are about 99% preventable Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thrillstalker 0 #14 March 29, 2011 Quote 8 Packing error (wrong routing of the briddle) Completely preventable, but as history shows ... So is uncocked pc, but as history shows"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #15 March 29, 2011 QuotePilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #16 March 29, 2011 QuoteQuotePilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all. Those are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #17 March 29, 2011 Quote Quote Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable I'd say most, but not all. I saw one where the pin punched through the bridle.... Never saw that coming and there was nothing we could have imagined to prevent it. Of course I would say most malfunctions are avoidable, but not all. Those are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing. I personally don't believe the industry completely understands the cause of that specific malfunction. Fortunately, it's rare, and dealing with it is straightforward. While the advice given is good, I don't think it's been proven to solve the problem. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #18 March 29, 2011 QuoteThose are preventable, proper slack on the bridle and correct routing. I disagree... the jumper in question put the velcro together and had the bridle routed correctly. Fact is that sometimes crazy things that are 1/million happen. And due to that you cannot claim that "Pilot chute in tows ARE preventable" you could claim that MOST are, but that was not the claim that was made. And again, you could claim that MOST malfunctions are preventable * bad packing * bad maintenance * bad body position * bad gear selection"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #19 March 29, 2011 http://vimeo.com/19921378 A few contributing factors in this one. FWIW, the rig/PC are brand new with fewer than 20 jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #20 March 29, 2011 Quotehttp://vimeo.com/19921378 A few contributing factors in this one. FWIW, the rig/PC are brand new with fewer than 20 jumps. Rig, PC both brand new, less than 20 jumps on it? Seems like your video says 'Shrunk Kill Line' Right there on the intro. Now, what the hell are they using for a kill line that has managed to shrink that far in LESS THAN 20 jumps?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #21 March 30, 2011 QuoteFact is that sometimes crazy things that are 1/million happen. I had, but lost on a 'puter hard drive blitz-out a couple of years ago, a picture of a PCIT caused by the point of the main pin getting trapped in the inspection window of a collapsible PC.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tommymiller_199 0 #22 March 30, 2011 I don't know if this is in here, but I found this on youtube. It's how Brian Germain packs his pc, and I started to as well. Pretty cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
