Offsetting ADD opening Altitudes WAS: Fatality - Cross Keys - 3/25/11

[phoenixlpr 0]

How about just growing up?
You suppose to have altitude awareness and pull on every jump.

Leave the AAD just for saving your life when you are unconscious.

Jumping is optional, landing is _not_.

[-ftp- 0]

Quote

Quote

... AAD switches itself to "canopy mode", during that mode if the jumper reaches a speed greater than say 30 MPH, instead of the ~78MPH, the AAD activates?

Swoopers would have to deal with two out every time they jumped. I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

I wasn't being specific, besides I think swoopers are in their own group and should make different decisions in ragards to AAD's in general.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

I've scared my AAD and dealt with a two out. Even at the current firing parameters had time to deal with it and find a place to land. No need to push it higher for these scenarios IMO.

So you don't like the idea of altitude to deal with a problem, like a 2 out? I sure would.

I'm saying let's limit the chances of 2 outs by not raising the firing altitude.

As for time? I had enough time under canopy after it fired for it to open, biplane, side by side, downplane, chop my main, and navigate to a safe landing spot.

For the full story of it, read this:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3014076#3014076

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,391]

Cut it out. Your one warning.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

Well, ftp was just throwing a number out for demonstration purposes.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bdb2004 25]

(Not a response to Bolas, I'm just replying to the last non-Moderator post in the thread....)

Sincere question, I promise I am asking with no agenda or hidden meaning. I would just like some honest answers.

An AAD does not activate or deploy the reserve. It cuts the reserve closing loop, which if all goes as engineered, will allow for the reserve to deploy.

However, sometimes things do not go as engineered. For whatever reason, cutting the closing loop may or may not lead to a deployment of the reserve. Several reasons for this exist, many are jumper error or situational (e.g., tumbling, etc.) but some are system error (e.g., main, reserve packed too tightly in the container.)

My question is this: if there are known problems with the *system* that can cause a reserve pilot chute hesitation after an AAD fire, can these same problems with the "system" cause issues after a jumper pulls silver? If yes, is the extra altitude (preferably pulling silver around 2000') the only solution that exists for these problems with the system? Are there things that jumpers, especially those of us who don't know very much at all, could be asking or thinking about to avoid these types of problems?

My point is, it would suck to die because of a pilot chute hesitation after an AAD fire because my gear was not configured optimally. But that's my problem for getting down into AAD territory to begin with. It wold suck much, much more to die because of pilot chute hesitation after a relatively straight forward cutaway and reserve pull, simply because I didn't know what questions I should be asking about how my gear is configured.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Like stated, simply raising the firing altitude is not going to deal with the MAIN cause of under inflated/non inflated reserves by AAD fire; low cutaways or some other scenario not reaching speed in time. AAD fires at terminal or close to it at 750 should be plenty in theory.
.
.
.
What about changing the perameters of the AAD? After a terminal desecnt the AAD can detect when we slow to a certain speed (pull main). Say 20 MPH, AAD switches itself to "canopy mode", during that mode if the jumper reaches a speed greater than say 30 MPH, instead of the ~78MPH, the AAD activates?

NOW we're thinking! It's up for debate on whether or not that's good idea but at least we're not blindly wanting to set a higher activation point without considering the ramifications!

Quote

maybe reseting after each jump could be an option, like cocking your pilot chute, this would HAVE to become part of the packing process.

A Cypres 2, for one, requires a reset after each jump because it assumes that your landing point is ground zero and the activation altitude rests to the standard above that for the mode you are in.
(see Cypres 2 User Guide, pages 19-21 for details)

Unfortunately, they have no version control on their documentation so make it a regular habit to download the latest and greatest.
http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Yes, you are correct on all counts.
AAD activation, manual pull...makes no difference. Those problems could occur either way.

Even worse is when the AAD activates but does not completely cut the closing loop and the cutter is located on a upper flap.
A manual pull after that would not allow the reserve flaps to open to release the reserve parachute.

Yes, by all means, you should be asking all sorts of questions about how your equipment is "configured".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[thrillstalker 0]

Andy I want to talk to you about this whole cypress 2 reset after each jump this weekend. I haven't heard that before and have never done this for each jump.

"Never grow a wishbone, where your backbone ought to be."

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Andy I want to talk to you about this whole cypress 2 reset after each jump this weekend. I haven't heard that before and have never done this for each jump.

From CYPRES 2 manual:

Quote

.When the takeoff airfeld and intended dropzone
are at different elevations, CYPRES must be
switched on at the departure airfeld and adjusted to
the elevation of the dropzone (see chapter 4.4).This
is extremely important when making demonstra-
tion/display jumps. Prior to each jump, on return
to the airfeld from the dropzone, it must be reset
before jumping again.

[billvon 2,391]

>My question is this: if there are known problems with the *system* that can cause a
>reserve pilot chute hesitation after an AAD fire, can these same problems with the
>"system" cause issues after a jumper pulls silver?

Absolutely. Simplest case is a perfectly flat and stable jumper who has a straightforward PC-in-the-burble. We used to see this all the time with military jumpers with ripcord activated mains; the PC would bop around for a few seconds before finding clean air.

There are also more complex problems, like spring strength, container sizing, hesitator loops with too much bridle in them etc. But yes, they can all cause delays in opening.

>It wold suck much, much more to die because of pilot chute hesitation after a
>relatively straight forward cutaway and reserve pull.

In that case you're not going to see the PC-in-the-burble problem very much but you might still see problems due to other issues like spring strength or pack job tightness. A reserve can have most of the same problems a main can, although (fortunately) they tend to be far more reliable.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Andy I want to talk to you about this whole cypress 2 reset after each jump this weekend. I haven't heard that before and have never done this for each jump.

You've never had to adjust for an offset as yet.

You can read about it in the Cypres 2 User's Guide on pages 19-21.

http://www.cypres2.com/userguide/CYPRES_2_users_guide_english.pdf

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Quote

.When the takeoff airfeld and intended dropzone
are at different elevations, CYPRES must be
switched on at the departure airfeld and adjusted to
the elevation of the dropzone (see chapter 4.4).This
is extremely important when making demonstra-
tion/display jumps. Prior to each jump, on return
to the airfeld from the dropzone, it must be reset
before jumping again.

That comes from Section 4.3 and is a good start.
More info is in Section 4.4 on the next page which is what I want him to read.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Rugby82 0]

Quote

Quote

... AAD switches itself to "canopy mode", during that mode if the jumper reaches a speed greater than say 30 MPH, instead of the ~78MPH, the AAD activates?

Swoopers would have to deal with two out every time they jumped. I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

You're correct.

When they put this canopy mode on an AAD I will definitely stop jumping AAD's. This would surely give me a two-out on every jump.

Blue skies!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Swoopers would have to deal with two out every time they jumped. I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

You're correct.

When they put this canopy mode on an AAD I will definitely stop jumping AAD's. This would surely give me a two-out on every jump.

[Rugby82 0]

Quote

Quote

Swoopers would have to deal with two out every time they jumped. I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

You're correct.

When they put this canopy mode on an AAD I will definitely stop jumping AAD's. This would surely give me a two-out on every jump.

How much do you want for your AAD? I'll buy it today.

"The Speed CYPRES is designed to allow very
extreme canopy piloting. The high activation speed
(approx. 86 percent of freefall speed) plus the feature
that the unit ceases operation below 330 feet are
tailored for this discipline."

From the Cypres 2 User's Guide, page 13.

I know of the speed cypres and it's parameters. I don't need that one for my canopy. Won't be reaching those speeds under canopy soon and also probably not in my whole skydiving career. I like the option that it ceases operation below 330 ft.

30 MPH is just too slow to let an AAD fire with current HP-canopies.

I'll sell you my Cypres in 7 years when it reaches it's 12-year mark .

Blue skies!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I know of the speed cypres and it's parameters. I don't need that one for my canopy. Won't be reaching those speeds under canopy soon and also probably not in my whole skydiving career. I like the option that it ceases operation below 330 ft.

30 MPH is just too slow to let an AAD fire with current HP-canopies.

If you know about the Speed mode, where are you getting 30mph from?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[-ftp- 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Swoopers would have to deal with two out every time they jumped. I may be new to the sport, but from what I'm aware, 30mph is pretty easy to achieve under a fully functional canopy.

You're correct.

When they put this canopy mode on an AAD I will definitely stop jumping AAD's. This would surely give me a two-out on every jump.

How much do you want for your AAD? I'll buy it today.

"The Speed CYPRES is designed to allow very
extreme canopy piloting. The high activation speed
(approx. 86 percent of freefall speed) plus the feature
that the unit ceases operation below 330 feet are
tailored for this discipline."

From the Cypres 2 User's Guide, page 13.

I know of the speed cypres and it's parameters. I don't need that one for my canopy. Won't be reaching those speeds under canopy soon and also probably not in my whole skydiving career. I like the option that it ceases operation below 330 ft.

30 MPH is just too slow to let an AAD fire with current HP-canopies.

I'll sell you my Cypres in 7 years when it reaches it's 12-year mark .

If you take the time to read the thread, I was using arbitrary numbers for example sake.

I also said, IMO swoopers should make their own decisions in regards to AAD's in general. This includes if they even want to use them in the first place.

[JerseyShawn 0]

Ok. Probably a stupid newbie question. I've only turned on an AAD before, never turned one off. Couldn't a swooper or anyone else who doesn't want a possible two out just reach behind them and turn off the AAD below 1k? Or can you only turn it off when it reads your on the ground?

Don't burn me on the question

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Ok. Probably a stupid newbie question. I've only turned on an AAD before, never turned one off. Couldn't a swooper or anyone else who doesn't want a possible two out just reach behind them and turn off the AAD below 1k? Or can you only turn it off when it reads your on the ground?

Don't burn me on the question

Never tried to turn one off while its in 'flight' however I believe it can be done.

As for reaching behind them, not likely... you have to look at it to know when to click the button, and to verify its off.

The CYPRES speed is designed for swoopers, I believe the Vigil has a Swoop mode, not sure about the Argus (not that it matters in most rigs)

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[oldrookie 0]

I agree with some of the sentiment in the post by phoenixlpr, and I am sorry, I don't really care if I offend or not.

This whole argument doesn't answer my question/thoughts regarding this problem, unless I missed it somewhere.
I also feel that I would like MY AAD to fire higher than 750 ft.
NOT when the vertical descent has allready slowed down from an open main, and then accelerates due to a cutaway, BUT when I passed through the 1500ft mark at terminal belly speed or more ( read.......UNCONSCIOUS).
THEN I would like it to fire at 1000ft.
These are arbitrary numbers,and I am sure they can be substantiated by testing in the air, and not close to the ground. ( it's probably gonna hurt a bit)
At least it will give my reserve some extra time to clear whatever obstacles it has to, because of a less than perfect body position.

And if it still doesn't work then......well, at least I won't have to pay for a re-pack.

[billvon 2,391]

>when I passed through the 1500ft mark at terminal belly speed or more
>read.......UNCONSCIOUS) THEN I would like it to fire at 1000ft.

It does. If you are unconscious and spinning away on your back your AAD will fire at approximately 1000 feet.

[Rugby82 0]

Quote

Quote

I know of the speed cypres and it's parameters. I don't need that one for my canopy. Won't be reaching those speeds under canopy soon and also probably not in my whole skydiving career. I like the option that it ceases operation below 330 ft.

30 MPH is just too slow to let an AAD fire with current HP-canopies.

If you know about the Speed mode, where are you getting 30mph from?

Have a look at post #49.

-ftp- opted for this one. The Student Cypres already fires at 29 MPH / 1000 ft so for students this is already the case.

It would be a nice thing to turn the Cypres off under canopy but this won't work with current rig designs. We would have to put the Cypres where the FXC once was. Although this would be one more action to do under canopy and you would have to look at the Cypres and maybe miss some traffic.

A better way would be, as opted in this discussion, to change the parameters of the unit. Correct me if I'm wrong but the parameters of current AAD's (and opening altitude) come from say 15 years ago when canopies opened much faster and there weren't HP-canopies. Maybe these parameters should be revised to the current era of skydiving.

Blue skies!

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

A better way would be, as opted in this discussion, to change the parameters of the unit. Correct me if I'm wrong but the parameters of current AAD's (and opening altitude) come from say 15 years ago when canopies opened much faster and there weren't HP-canopies. Maybe these parameters should be revised to the current era of skydiving.

There is nothing wrong with the unit. Reserve canopies still have the very same requirements.

The problem is in the user. If you have an ADD you should know its operating parameters and you not suppose to exceed those.

AFAIK CYPRES was designed to prevent no pull.
It is not angel. It has just a set of algorithm for saving your life if needed. You should not the limitation if its use. If you know that those are not applicable than make sure you switch it off. E.g.: I would turn it OFF in case of a hot-air balloon jump.

You can have a second chance to live. If you get a 2-out because of your low pull that's your own stupid fault.

[nigel99 143]

Quote

Ok. Probably a stupid newbie question. I've only turned on an AAD before, never turned one off. Couldn't a swooper or anyone else who doesn't want a possible two out just reach behind them and turn off the AAD below 1k? Or can you only turn it off when it reads your on the ground?

Don't burn me on the question

It is not designed to be used in that manner. Unless you discussed doing something like this with the manufacturers you would not know how the unit would react. Many systems of this type perform self tests on shut-down, you have no idea what could happen.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.