Emergency exit technique (was - CYPRES save)

[Ron 7]

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Aw Contraire. I said I sould look and decide what to do next. In this case, diving out immiedately as above would have been a better choice.

I can't think of a single case where a floating exit is better than a diving exit in an emergency.... Not one. Anyone?

And if stop in the middle of an *emergency* exit to decide what to do and you are in front of me... You are either going to get run over or pushed out.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,379]

>I can't think of a single case where a floating exit is better than a diving
>exit in an emergency.... Not one. Anyone?

A very rapid AFF exit with a student. In the case of (for example) an Otter losing an engine at 11,000 feet, the safest approach might be to do an exit the student is prepared for, and has trained for.

>And if stop in the middle of an *emergency* exit to decide what to do
>and you are in front of me... You are either going to get run over or
>pushed out.

Hopefully that is not the case if you are behind a student whose JM is trying to get them out of the airplane safely.

[Ron 7]

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A very rapid AFF exit with a student. In the case of (for example) an Otter losing an engine at 11,000 feet, the safest approach might be to do an exit the student is prepared for, and has trained for

Fair, but:

1. I thought it was pretty clear that we were not discussing students here.

2. Most pilots I have talked to do not want *anyone* floating with an engine out in an emergency exit.

3. I have been with an AFF with an engine out. The AFF I's had her do a solo exit. I'd do the same, I can catch a student from 11k

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[fasted3 0]

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Aw Contraire. I said I sould look and decide what to do next. In this case, diving out immiedately as above would have been a better choice.

I can't think of a single case where a floating exit is better than a diving exit in an emergency.... Not one. Anyone?

And if stop in the middle of an *emergency* exit to decide what to do and you are in front of me... You are either going to get run over or pushed out.

Hey, the 'as above' reffered to YOUR advised exit.
Maybe if you quit looking for things to disagree with, you would see more clearly.

But what do I know?

[fasted3 0]

All I hear is crickets.
If you have an answer to my question, reply to this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4086335#4086335

But what do I know?

[Ron 7]

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All I hear is crickets

Clearly that is all you want to hear, and that is why it is all you hear.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kuai43 7]

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All I hear is crickets.
If you have an answer to my question, reply to this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4086335#4086335

Dude, have they recently changed your meds?

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[likearock 1]

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All I hear is crickets.
If you have an answer to my question, reply to this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4086335#4086335

Dude, have they recently changed your meds?

Dude, that's uncalled for.

[kuai43 7]

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All I hear is crickets.
If you have an answer to my question, reply to this thread:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4086335#4086335

Dude, have they recently changed your meds?

Dude, that's uncalled for.

Just a bit fed up with the crap he's been spewing lately.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[billvon 2,379]

Ron, Fasted, Kuai - cut it out.

[NovaTTT 1]

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A very rapid AFF exit with a student. In the case of (for example) an Otter losing an engine at 11,000 feet, the safest approach might be to do an exit the student is prepared for, and has trained for.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Part of student training is and should be aircraft emergencies. In your scenario, the AFF JM should tell that student, "Things have gone to shit. Remember your emergency procedures - jump, clear the aircraft and pull that silver handle."

IMO there is no other safe alternative for a student emergency exit. When the pilot says "Get out!", get out. Your student should be trained for this and briefed before every jump.

If you're the last or only slots on the load, take all the time and poised exiting you want; that's between you and the pilot. But you're not doing anybody a favour by failing to get out of that plane pronto when the pilot orders a rapid egress.

Otters stall too.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[billvon 2,379]

>Part of student training is and should be aircraft emergencies.

Absolutely. And you should prepare your student for ALL emergencies, not just the one "GET OUT" at a low altitude that most people think about.

Here are the exits we emphasize:

Low altitude emergency bailout. Hand on reserve handle, run out the door, count one one thousand, pull reserve handle.

Emergency bailout above 2500 feet. Hand on main, run out the door, count one one thousand, deploy.

Emergency exit with JM at ~4000-6000 feet. Take orders from JM. Prepare for a rapid ready-set-go. If after exit altitude is below 5000 feet, deploy immediately. (In our case, since the student takes all their commands from the main side JM, the reserve side just exits and the main side exits with the student and ensures they deploy.)

Precautionary exit with JM at high altitude. Normal exit. Prepare for a rapid count.

>In your scenario, the AFF JM should tell that student, "Things have gone to shit.
>Remember your emergency procedures - jump, clear the aircraft and pull that silver
>handle."

In most cases that is not necessary at 11,000 feet. It is far safer to exit with the student. In our case that would be mainside only due to how our program is structured.

>IMO there is no other safe alternative for a student emergency exit.

There are many safe alternatives, and you have to be able to adapt to the emergency.

As a simple example, at WFFC one year, we had a canopy inflate over the tail during jump run. It felt like the plane had hit a brick wall, and everyone tumbled forward. The plane started diving. We didn't hear anything from the pilot, but me and another JM decided it was time to exit, so we told everyone to bail out. We both got everyone out the door as quickly as possible, then I looked at the tail before exiting myself. The canopy had cleared except for some trailing debris (turned out to be the deicing boot and some canopy lines and whatnot) so I went forward to tell the pilot the condition of the tail. He did a control check and then said "OK, thanks, want another jump run?" We exited and landed; he landed without incident.

One of the interesting things about this was that it was very clear that something bad had happened (everyone got knocked over) and there were two organizers yelling "bail out! bail out! now!" and everyone was prepared to get out of the plane (helmets on, waiting to exit.) And still there was mass confusion. People came to the door and looked at me. I told some of them to get out, pushed some of them right out the door. They finally got the hint and started exiting on their own.

Keep in mind these were people from 50 to 5000 jumps - AND they were ready to exit - AND they knew something bad had just happened - AND they had two people telling them to bail out. And still some people didn't quite know what to do. Can you imagine a planeload of students in the same situation? Which is why, if altitude, speed and configuration permit, it's often preferable to keep the exit as close as possible to what the student is trained for.

[rehmwa 2]

That's a good answer. I'm sure you'd also adjust the student's exit if the plane is at a very high decent rate regardless of altitude.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Beachbum 0]

Your WFFC example brings something to mind that I don't remember ever seeing/hearing discussed. In a situation like that, I am sure that normal exit seperation times go out the window, but what SHOULD be done with regard to that? I understand it's very situational, and that down low it likely doesn't come into play ... just get the heck OUT, but if at altitude would it be best to have some time between rather than just getting everyone out the door as fast as possible?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[Ron 7]

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In a situation like that, I am sure that normal exit seperation times go out the window, but what SHOULD be done with regard to that?

Freefall separation is secondary to getting out of the plane fast.

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but if at altitude would it be best to have some time between rather than just getting everyone out the door as fast as possible?

Do as the pilot says. Unless he gives you other instruction, get out as fast as you can.

Once in freefall, I like to build a big star if possible. It gets everyone together.

I have been in a DC3 with an engine out. The pilot brought it around at 10k and told us to exit as normal.

I have been in a Queen Air with an engine out and the pilot told us to get out without putting floaters out. We built a star with the whole load.

I have been in a Cessna 185 with an engine out and the pilot told us to get out as fast as possible. We were at 4 so we just pulled out the door including the AFF

I have been in a porter with a trim running wild. The pilot told us to get out as fast as we could. We just pulled out the door including the AFF students.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[riggerpaul 1]

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Your WFFC example brings something to mind that I don't remember ever seeing/hearing discussed. In a situation like that, I am sure that normal exit seperation times go out the window, but what SHOULD be done with regard to that? I understand it's very situational, and that down low it likely doesn't come into play ... just get the heck OUT, but if at altitude would it be best to have some time between rather than just getting everyone out the door as fast as possible?

If during the emergency exit all would do clear and pulls, at least there would be a smaller range of possibilities of where the other people could be, making it easier to do traffic avoidance.

I know, it may be high up, and your spot may suck, and there could be another aircraft turning onto the jumprun shortly if it is a big, busy dz.

But, even in the case of the big busy dz, I would hope that the emergency on one aircraft would mean that others make way for what might need to happen.

If we all get out and do solos till a more normal pull altitude, it is going to be really really difficult to keep track of where everybody is.

CRW dogs do close hop-n-pops all the time. If they can manage it, we should be able to as well.

(At least that's the way I've always thought it could/would/should work. If it is patently stupid, I am all ears for the better way to handle it.)

[billvon 2,379]

>I am sure that normal exit seperation times go out the window, but
>what SHOULD be done with regard to that?

Look at the people on either side of you. Don't run into them.

>but if at altitude would it be best to have some time between rather than
>just getting everyone out the door as fast as possible?

In general, emergency exits are performed because something is wrong with the airplane and everyone needs to get out as quickly as possible. In those cases, you are at much higher risk staying inside the airplane than being outside the airplane.

[popsjumper 2]

I've told this story before but once again....

Bail-out at 1700, Otter full load.

23 solo H&P exits, 1 pass, all land on DZ.

DZO says, "Alright! That's it! 23 solo out on one pass? No more Go-arounds!"



Side note: 21 mains, 2 reserves

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[theonlyski 3]

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Side note: 21 mains, 2 reserves

They ever live it down?

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[ufk22 32]

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Side note: 21 mains, 2 reserves

They ever live it down?

You talking about the ones that used their mains?????

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[monkycndo 0]

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Side note: 21 mains, 2 reserves

They ever live it down?

The two that did that made the decision were below their hard deck and went straight to reserve. It may not have been necessary, but it wasn't "wrong". It was discussed on here if you want to find the thread.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[matthewcline 0]

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In a situation like that, I am sure that normal exit seperation times go out the window, but what SHOULD be done with regard to that?

Freefall separation is secondary to getting out of the plane fast.agree, a fast file out is probably best as it is controlled and quick

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but if at altitude would it be best to have some time between rather than just getting everyone out the door as fast as possible?

Do as the pilot says. Unless he gives you other instruction, get out as fast as you can.

Once in freefall, I like to build a big star if possible. It gets everyone together. I disagree! Exit and deploy as soon as you are clear of the plane. Do not meet the plane at a lower altitude! Give the pilot all the air space over the airport to maneuver and land.

I have been in a DC3 with an engine out. The pilot brought it around at 10k and told us to exit as normal.

I have been in a Queen Air with an engine out and the pilot told us to get out without putting floaters out. We built a star with the whole load.

I have been in a Cessna 185 with an engine out and the pilot told us to get out as fast as possible. We were at 4 so we just pulled out the door including the AFF

I have been in a porter with a trim running wild. The pilot told us to get out as fast as we could. We just pulled out the door including the AFF students.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Sletzer 3]

We were definitely not ready to exit when that emergency happened, but there was no mass confusion or panicking by anyone that I saw. And popsjumper was as cool as a cucumber

I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

[NovaTTT 1]

Very good answers, Bill, and relevent to their respective situations. Each AFF/IAD/SL student should be presented with these and similar scenarios and how to handle them based on JM instruction.

But remember the beginning point - the pilot says "Get out!". There should be no floating or standard AFF exits. That is the time to get your student out.

I agree that 11000 is not 2500 in terms of EPs, but as I mentioned, Otters stall (imagine that!), there might be a mechanical issue or a fire. If the pilot declares an emergency and orders an exit, get out.

In that instance, for upjumpers I say enjoy the altitude. For students, I subscribe to exit, deploy and enjoy the parachute ride.

There are no simple or solid answers in this sport, but IMO this is the safest solution to that scenario.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[billvon 2,379]

>But remember the beginning point - the pilot says "Get out!". There
>should be no floating or standard AFF exits. That is the time to get your
>student out.

Agreed - and in general, you want to get them out as quickly and as safely as possible. Sometimes that will be something close to a standard exit. Sometimes that will be kicking them along the ceiling to get them closer to the door.