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happythoughts

inaction is complicity

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things happen and then, for 2 months, people bitch about it.
"yes, reckless. a tragedy. so sad. we should have rules. they should be enforced."

we keep having canopy collisions.
then people are angry and sad.
then they stop thinking about it.

a dz should have landing area rules.
they should be enforced.

if someone continuously does this, and no one mentions it to them,
then those people are complicit in their actions and the results.
if you don't take action, then you don't get to have
some kind of righteous indignation when they put your
friend in the hospital.
mention it to your S&TA, that is their job.

i don't care if they have Mad Skillz.
i don't care if their buddies think they are Special-cool.
no special privileges.

fly the pattern.
no 360s over the MLA.
no 180s in a crowded pattern.
follow the landing direction.

the rules are there to protect others.

a person who takes chances that endanger other peoples lives without care are just dicks. feel free to mention it to them.

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True.

It is also important that we set a good example. When all the "cool kids" land right next to the beer line in rapid succession it does not show the sort of canopy separation that we want people to create.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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We teach it, does that mean that we have to do it every time???
I swoop after almost every jump but I make sure my students know what to do different than what I am doing...
When they grow up it is just like driving a car...some go faster than others and have wrecks...
Don't hate on me for doing what I can safely...
I know you ain't hatin' but it sure feels like dislike ;)
If I see a someone driving too fast under canopy they get told about it..fer sure.
tom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-)

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We teach it, does that mean that we have to do it every time???
I swoop after almost every jump but I make sure my students know what to do different than what I am doing...
When they grow up it is just like driving a car...some go faster than others and have wrecks...
Don't hate on me for doing what I can safely...
I know you ain't hatin' but it sure feels like dislike ;)
If I see a someone driving too fast under canopy they get told about it..fer sure.



the problem is solved by the swoopers.
they don't go through the middle of the pattern.

1- they can sit and wait, then go when the pattern clears.
2- they can hop and pop, and enter a vacant landing area.

there is no reason to downwind across the top of
the main landing area (with other jumpers present)
and then do a 180 into a populated pattern.

if someone is zigzagging through 5 jumpers on final,
that person survives because the person ahead of
them is flying safely. one radical change and the unseen person behind will plow into them at 50 ft.

there is a too-long list of jumpers (many experienced ones) who were killed by others in canopy collisions.
being safe doesn't help if the person who hits you isn't.

i am discussing recklessness flying and arrogant disregard for others. skill isn't a factor.

each dz needs to a policy for this.

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the problem is solved by the swoopers.
they don't go through the middle of the pattern.



'Zactly. There are people at my home DZ who swoop on every jump. But they do it in the high-performance landing area, and they match the day's pattern for that landing area.

You come through the main landing area with anything greater than a 90, there's going to be a talking-to.

What I like is that the DZ's culture is such that there are a lot of people who feel comfortable having the conversation with the person who makes a mistake; it's not just the S&TA or the DZO. If (for example) I see someone in the main landing area doing a left hand pattern on a right hand pattern day, I've got no problem saying something - it's a narrow landing area and having everyone come in from the same side is critical to helping us manage traffic and congestion. That's a more common scenario than seeing someone bust a big turn in the main landing area - the swoopers are pretty good at keeping their own in line over in the high-perf area.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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The canopy incident problem won't go away until we get serious about analyzing incidents. There is so much critical data that ISN'T collected about canopy incidents that a pattern of critical elements may never be established.

Some of the industry's assumptions about the causes of canopy incidents and their cures might be quite different if a deeper fact extraction and analysis was performed.

Bummer, but true.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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The canopy incident problem won't go away until we get serious about analyzing incidents. There is so much critical data that ISN'T collected about canopy incidents that a pattern of critical elements may never be established.

Some of the industry's assumptions about the causes of canopy incidents and their cures might be quite different if a deeper fact extraction and analysis was performed.

Bummer, but true.



true. that is why i don't assume to have all solutions.
i am just suggesting that each dz should solve this one.

the idea that "this is complex, so let's not do anything"
is a really bad decision.
we don't need to fix everything, but we need to do something about the known things.

if you watch someone do a 180 over the middle of 8 jumpers
and get away with swerving through them, that is one
problem that is easy to identify and solve. "stop doing that"

second problem ? after Bob Holler died - how long until people went back to business as usual ?
a month of anger and then... dropped.

when we do bigways, "at 500 ft, you are on final,
you are part of the 100+ person group, no stupid stuff,
not even a 90"

if we can create rules that allow 130 people to land safely,
why not make a simple one for 9 people landing safely ?

most dzs have rules, they just don't enforce them.

some of the people who have died in canopy collisions
have had more jumps/skills than 10 weekend fun jumpers.
some people died just because they under the wrong careless turn.

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The canopy incident problem won't go away until we get serious about analyzing incidents.

There is so much critical data that ISN'T collected about canopy incidents that a pattern of critical elements may never be established.

Quote

Some of the industry's assumptions about the causes of canopy incidents...


How much analysis does it take to determine that the main cause is arrogance and/or stupidity.
I don't think ignorance is the issue at all. These guys KNOW it's wrong yet they do it anyway.

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....and their cures....


Now therein lies the problem. How do you "cure" arrogance and stupidity at your DZ?
Radical, but sure answer: Deny them access to your jump plane.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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a person who takes chances that endanger other peoples lives without care are just dicks. feel free to mention it to them.



True. But it'll never work because:
1. They think are cool cats.
2. Their buddies think they are cool cats.
3. Young, impressionable jumpers think they are cool cats.
4. Spectators think they are cool cats.
5. S&TAs are quite often think of themselves as cool cats, too.
6. DZOs look the other way when it's one of the cool cat staffers doing it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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a person who takes chances that endanger other peoples lives without care are just dicks. feel free to mention it to them.



True. But it'll never work because:
1. They think are cool cats.
2. Their buddies think they are cool cats.
3. Young, impressionable jumpers think they are cool cats.
4. Spectators think they are cool cats.
5. S&TAs are quite often think of themselves as cool cats, too.
6. DZOs look the other way when it's one of the cool cat staffers doing it.



Very reccent story:
"Will you teach me to wingsuit?
Can I see your logbook?....You only have 160jumps, so you've got some time and jumps to acheive. Hey, did I see you jumping a 109 XFire?
"Yeah, I've been jumping it for the last 40 jumps"
That's a little small for your experience, wingloading is higher than we'd like to see you jumping here.
"I'm fine with it, I've been practicing my swoops and going really far."
What does your DZO have to say about it?
"Ask him, he's right there."
(DZO says "he's one of my best students."
XXX....you're gonna get hurt under that canopy...
"Nah, man...I've been jumping it fine."

very next day....damaged himself very badly on a botched swoop and high stall.
DZO allowed it (visiting foreigners), DZ told him we didn't like it,
End result, damaged jumper.
You just can't get some guys to learn from the mistakes of others.

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The canopy incident problem won't go away until we get serious about analyzing incidents. There is so much critical data that ISN'T collected about canopy incidents that a pattern of critical elements may never be established.

Some of the industry's assumptions about the causes of canopy incidents and their cures might be quite different if a deeper fact extraction and analysis was performed.



Bump. Great post, Chuck.

One company I know of carefully documents everything that might be considered a safety-related incident including 'close calls' that do not result in injury or equipment / property damage. Any situation that someone witnesses can become an 'incident flash' and documented as such to help others work safely. Many of the incident flashes are actually submitted by the person directly involved.

In working to find real solutions to safety problems, the company has a solid set of documentation about many incidents that fall outside of the normal 'required reporting protocols'. This depth of information has allowed them to consistently operate with minimal lost-time due to injuries or equipment / property damage -- in an industry that has been historically very dangerous.

It would be helpful to have such information regarding skydiving incidents that did not result in injury / death. That information is mostly not available, so people are free to speculate and develop their own interpretations of what needs to be done about the perceived problem. We can see how well that has worked up to now.

The Canopy Control problem is still a serious issue. It goes beyond swooping, low-timers or those who may need an 'attitude adjustment'. If you simply blame one group for the problem, you won't make any real progress.

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Bump...

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things happen and then, for 2 months, people bitch about it.
"yes, reckless. a tragedy. so sad. we should have rules. they should be enforced."

we keep having canopy collisions.
then people are angry and sad.
then they stop thinking about it.

a dz should have landing area rules.
they should be enforced.

if someone continuously does this, and no one mentions it to them,
then those people are complicit in their actions and the results.
if you don't take action, then you don't get to have
some kind of righteous indignation when they put your
friend in the hospital.
mention it to your S&TA, that is their job.

i don't care if they have Mad Skillz.
i don't care if their buddies think they are Special-cool.
no special privileges.

fly the pattern.
no 360s over the MLA.
no 180s in a crowded pattern.
follow the landing direction.

the rules are there to protect others.

a person who takes chances that endanger other peoples lives without care are just dicks. feel free to mention it to them.

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