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tkhayes

Yes, it actually CAN happen to you.....

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Not because I don't think we need landing patterns or enforcement, but we need to take a couple of things into consideration.

1. While airplane pilots can do go-arounds, making an unattractive landing situation optional (at least most of the time), canopy pilots can't. I think that it behooves DZ's to make it easier or more attractive to land out.

2. The staff at some DZs are so used to the others in the air, and the physical features of the DZ, that they kind of land wherever they want, in whatever direction they want -- because they always have. DZs don't always want to piss good staff off. Remember that staff have to come right back in and go up on another jump; landing far away isn't a good option. Maybe a staff load at the end of the (particularly weekend) day, with anyone who broke pattern or did something stupid being ineligible would help this. Of course, that costs the DZ, but not as much in the long run as a fatality.

I realize this incident happened on a weekday, as did the double at Spaceland. There is nothing that will prevent all canopy fatalities. We can figure out what is the biggest cause, try to manage that, and see if that makes enough of a difference.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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I have two young kids and try to do what I can to be as safe as possible in the sport I love...Here is what I do to try to avoid canopy collisions:

1 - Head on a swivel, fly defensively.

2 - As an organizer, always find out from pilot about upper winds/needed exit separation and TALK to the other groups on the load so everyone will hopefully take that seriously and minimize risk of collisions between groups.

3 - Land in an alternate area, it's actually closer to the hangar (I need to try get back quickly since I pack for myself and organize) but not a lot of folks land there.

4 - Talk to ANY person I see do anything under canopy I don't think is wise and be sure they understand why it's a bad idea (using brakes in pattern, spiraling low or into traffic if they are lightly loaded, etc.). I also watch everyone's track and talk to anyone (regardless of jump # experience) if they are lazy or diving in their track.

5 - On my loads, stress flat tracking with the newer jumpers and always be sure I have a good flat track and always signal the break off at an ample altitude.

There may be other things I do, but those are the ones that come to mind.

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Not because I don't think we need landing patterns or enforcement, but we need to take a couple of things into consideration.

1. While airplane pilots can do go-arounds, making an unattractive landing situation optional (at least most of the time), canopy pilots can't. I think that it behooves DZ's to make it easier or more attractive to land out.

2. The staff at some DZs are so used to the others in the air, and the physical features of the DZ, that they kind of land wherever they want, in whatever direction they want -- because they always have. DZs don't always want to piss good staff off. Remember that staff have to come right back in and go up on another jump; landing far away isn't a good option. Maybe a staff load at the end of the (particularly weekend) day, with anyone who broke pattern or did something stupid being ineligible would help this. Of course, that costs the DZ, but not as much in the long run as a fatality.

I realize this incident happened on a weekday, as did the double at Spaceland. There is nothing that will prevent all canopy fatalities. We can figure out what is the biggest cause, try to manage that, and see if that makes enough of a difference.

Wendy P.



While not a direct effect, I think you touched on it slightly. We have become such a numbers driven sport. People are still damn near considered students and "wonders" even with 500 jumps, so everyone wants to go to the turbine DZs and do whatever it takes to get to the landing area closest to the packing area so they can get packed and be on the next load to get their numbers up to reach whatever milestone they have their hearts set on or even to make themselves (and the DZO) more money. I have seen some fiesty DZOs yelling at staff to hurry up and quick turn it so it only adds to them trying to get to the landing area by any means necessary which trickles down to fun jumpers.
Not the biggest deal or anything that potentially needs to be changed, but thought Id throw it out there since its the internet and we are discussing things.

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Faster canopies AND slower canopies competiting for the same airspace, 20 people exiting on one pass with similar opening altitudes all going to the same small place at the same time, unaware/uneducated/untalented people flying through a pattern causing havock and unplanned/unexpected turns by others trying to avoid them & creating a ripple effect.



You can also add higher and higher wing loadings over the years, With the majority of these jumpers having downsized to the point they cannot devote enough attention/focus to fly safely in traffic and avoid canopy collisions. To me a good number of experienced jumpers out there with highly loaded HP canopies these days are just as dangerous as a student with 10 jumps when it comes to flying in traffic.

Rapid downsizing is the norm for young immortal jumpers these days, with no rules and regulations in place to control their progression. Those same young immortal jumpers that survive grow up to become STAs, coaches or instructors. Then go on to teach new jumpers that it is perfectly fine to fly a canopy they can barely control as long as they can stand up their landings.

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Bigger airplanes=more canopies.
Wind tunnels=false sense of security under canopy.
Higher wingloading is cool=rapid downsizing.
First man down=lots of confusion.
Full face helmets =not hearing well, seeing well or yelling well.
More than 90's=high speed, low vision, little outs.
Some people have 1,000 jumps, some people have one jump 1,000 times.
Old school landing techniques vs. new school.
Dirt diving the skydive, never dirt diving the canopy flight.
Fighter jets, cargo planes and 182's all landing at the same "airport".

And the "Human element" that can never be removed. Ever pull out in traffic and almost hit, or be hit by accident? Ever change lanes and not see that car in your rear view mirror?

It all adds up.:S

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>>There is just a limited amount of thing you can put in a course.

Very true.

>...canopy control has taken a back seat to freefall skills.

I agree, and that's a problem. However, the time to cover front riser usage and how to clear your airspace before a 270 (for example) is not the FJC. It's during the later parts of the ISP, and fortunately more DZ's are implementing this additional training.

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Bigger airplanes=more canopies.
Wind tunnels=false sense of security under canopy.
Higher wingloading is cool=rapid downsizing.
First man down=lots of confusion.
Full face helmets =not hearing well, seeing well or yelling well.
More than 90's=high speed, low vision, little outs.
Some people have 1,000 jumps, some people have one jump 1,000 times.
Old school landing techniques vs. new school.
Dirt diving the skydive, never dirt diving the canopy flight.
Fighter jets, cargo planes and 182's all landing at the same "airport".

And the "Human element" that can never be removed. Ever pull out in traffic and almost hit, or be hit by accident? Ever change lanes and not see that car in your rear view mirror?

It all adds up.:S


All good points to consider!


We need to discuss the ENTIRE DIVE during debriefs, in all disciplines.

We all know the dive isn't over once we pull, so why do most freefall debriefs usually end at the track/pull......?

CRW jumpers: why does the debrief usually end at the starburst....?

Camera jumpers: Why shut digital video off, ever, before you land?

Most of the canopy collision deaths are happening to experienced jumpers below 3,000ft.

The most overlooked & under-evaluated part of our skydive is killing us.

We know where we need to focus: the canopy descent and landing pattern.

Starting with the dirt dive & ending with the debrief.

Blue Skies,
April
Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

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...and fortunately more DZ's are implementing this additional training.



Yes, Skydive the Farm's AFF A-license package deal includes a Flight 1 Canopy Course by PD Team member Ian Drennan.

It can also be purchased separately by anyone.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>Accuracy jumpers have been "stacking" their descents and landings on the
>same target for years. Can we all not do this, or is it just not possible with
>a number of fast canopies?

I think it's perfectly possible with fast or slow canopies. It becomes very hard when you have a mix, though. On Moxie, for example, we have canopies ranging from 150's to 90's - and the smaller canopies often open higher. Which means either people are going to bunch up on landing (risk of collision) or they have to restack before entering the pattern by getting below other people (also risk of collision.)



Then everyone should open close to the same altitude and have each person plan on landing in WL order. I have done this on 12 ways with a mix of canopies from Velos to Star Trac II's.

It *can* be done if people are willing to do it, or are forced to do it.

Further, assigned landing areas could be given to each group in the plane... Just like we do on 100+ ways with sectors.

The answers to avoiding canopy collisions are already out there.

1. LOOK!
2. High Performance landing areas.
3. Stack the landings.
4. Separate landing zones for each group.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>It *can* be done if people are willing to do it, or are forced to do it.

Agreed. However, that may entail other safety risks. For example, when I am videoing 8-way, it means pulling on level with the rest of the team rather than pulling higher at breakoff. It would also mean some bizarre altitudes for people like trackers, solos and wingsuiters, to ensure they all start at about the same level.

(It can be done, it's just not that straightforward.)

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It would also mean some bizarre altitudes for people like trackers, solos and wingsuiters, to ensure they all start at about the same level.



Sorry, I was referring to the people in the same group.

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For example, when I am videoing 8-way, it means pulling on level with the rest of the team rather than pulling higher at breakoff.



That would not create a dangerous situation.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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It reduces overall separation



By adding ONE person to that group. Making an 8 way traffic issue like a 9 way.

As opposed to having an 8 way, then a video guy 1k above them open and the next group open CLOSER to the video guy than he would be if he 'joined' his group instead of being between two groups.

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Cameramen pulling higher is common on 4 and 8 ways



Just because it has always been that way.... Does not mean it is the best method....
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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