Ron 7 #26 July 8, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know for 100% that at last years World championship their rigs were equipped with a Cypress while they had a Vigil patch on their jumpsuit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You must work with the fucking CIA.... Its not the only story I have heard about this, or the only team."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #27 July 8, 2004 No offense Kim, but you didn't answer any of his questions. QuoteBut Kim take a look at the facts. Not taking into consideration the internal problems at management level, that all skydiving technicians who stood at the cradle of the Vigil left because relevant information intentionally was withheld (as this happened in Belgium) and the product recall, we still have: - One unexplained activation at opening altitude resulting in a double canopy out - One simultaneous opening in Australia by a static line student (have you seen the video??) - One safety bulletin stating that the device was safe to jump (resulting in the incident in Australia) - Another safety bulletin stating the device was safe to jump as long as you did not switch it on and removed the loop from the loop-cutter (bypassing) - Several countries literally grounded the Vigil as even not switched on the cutter could activate, causing sever damage to the reserve canopy and the bypass method could result in a hard pull. Look I know you, and you know me...Hell I like you and think you are very skilled, smart and honest...It does not hurt that you are very cute. However, the company you are working for has not been very up front about issue it has had. The low pull in Zhills...Well I can see that one. But you really think Terry screwed up replacing a set of batteries? What about the DeLand in air fire at 3 grand? How many ground packing fires had to happen before Vigil did anything? Remember they denyed a problem till more fires happened. The Static line fire in Aus? The PSB saying it was OK to put the Vigil in a rig as long as you bypassed the loop around the cutter (Making the device nothing more than a 1,100 Pro Dyter). While I think you are doing your best and that you really do belive in the product...(Folks I do know her and she would NEVER sell a product she does not believe in). The facts are that the company is pulling some sneaky stuff. And we are taling about a device that could KILL someone if it misfires. I have heard sponsord people say that the only thing Vigil on them is a patch. Two DZ's that I know of have removed them from their rigs. Through all of this Vigil has NOT been open about any problem. They ignored the static issue till it became a clear problem. Never answered the in air fire at DeLand. And saying that Terry screwed up is a pretty lame answer to that fire. The PSB saying you can have it but it has to be rendered inop is the dumbest thing I have ever read from a company. I really do understand that you really do believe in the product or you would not sell it. I also understand that its your job to defend it. Why has Vigil avoided answering the in air fire question? You know I have no stake in Vigil or CYPRES. I am sponsored by neither and don't even work in the industry....So why do I ask these questions? I don't think the company is being honest about the problems. And another misfire could kill someone...there have already been two double outs. I don't want to see another Nova."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kimgriffin 0 #28 July 8, 2004 Hi Ron. I am happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability (in that I work for the distributor and not the manufacturer.) But, I leave for Cali tomorrow and a big shipment of Vigils just came in and I need to do billing and get them shipped out ASAP. So, I just wanted to let you know that I will get to your post at least by tomorrow before I go. It's frustrating knowing that there are other AAD malfunctions and there is nothing I'm allowed to say about it and there is nothing the mfg will say about it or let anyone else say about it. But, because the owner of AAD does not want to have that sort of business practice and the Vigil is a new product, we must sit in the firing range. But, the Vigil is a life saving devise and is under the microscope being a new product, so I do understand why people have questions. I'm a big fan of asking questioning, actually. I'm already very happy that the nasty static electricity bug was terminated quickly and the version B has been performing just as it should. But, I'll be even happier when another 6 months has passed. The reason why there have not been more answers on this site is because AAD is still a relatively small European company with no marketing department. The manufacturing and quality control depts are chock full but that is not the case with the marketing dept. The owner has been actively looking to fill the position of sales and marketing for AAD but he would rather wait to choose the right people for the job. Most skydiving mfg companies have had this problem at some point in time… find a person who is intelligent, with computer skills, people skills, is dependable, professional and a skydiver. It may seem like AAD has had something to hide since you have not seen them answering questions on this site, but that is NOT the case at all. To be honest, there has just been no one at AAD to monitor this site or to write press releases. I will try to pick up the ball and will do what I can to get you answers. It’s just tough for me to be on this site all the time, as I’m trying to work part time and wear pretty much all the company hats for Vigil USA. I do not want to answer questions from someone with ulterior motives and who has something to gain by Vigil’s loss. But, it's a whole different story with you, Ron. I do respect you and your position here. You deserve answers. Please, just hold the line for a bit. I'll be back... ~Kim Griffin Vigil USA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #29 July 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I know for 100% that at last years World championship their rigs were equipped with a Cypress while they had a Vigil patch on their jumpsuit. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You must work with the fucking CIA.... Its not the only story I have heard about this, or the only team. So, a) your buddies are misrepresenting their product? or b) telling stories to avoid ridicule by know-it-alls? It's not like anybody is forcing them to use an unsafe product. If they truly do not believe in it, why the charade? Why risk their lives? If they are getting paid aren't using it, they should probably give the money back, or buy a Cypres with their sponsorship money. But then again, you know the truth. Why don't you get your friends to post on here on their experiences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #30 July 9, 2004 QuoteSo, a) your buddies are misrepresenting their product? or b) telling stories to avoid ridicule by know-it-alls? Could be both actually. But there is a third option c) they were given the units and at one time they thought they were safe...Then after all the fires and the BS responses from the caompany, they decided to take the units out, or bypass the cutter, or just leave them off for fear of their personal saftey, but they are not ready to openly slam a sponsor in case they units turn out to be safe...But they are not willing to risk getting killed till then. You see a SMART skydiver does not jump a product just cause it was free or cheap just so they can be cool and be "sponsored". QuoteIt's not like anybody is forcing them to use an unsafe product. If they truly do not believe in it, why the charade? Why risk their lives? If they are getting paid aren't using it, they should probably give the money back, or buy a Cypres with their sponsorship money. But then again, you know the truth. Well I do the STORY...Which is why I said QuoteIts not the only story I have heard about this, or the only team. But its clear you are so blindly following a product that you can't even look, or refuse to look at the posibilities that people with more time in the sport and more experience than you have seen dangerous products and companies before. You ever heard of a NOVA? Ever see one or jump one? Vigil is playing the same game that Glide Path did...Ignored a problem, then finnaly sort of admitted it in limited situations, then said there was a problem....But in the case of the NOVA several people died before GP came around. Quote Why don't you get your friends to post on here on their experiences. Because not one sponsored person I know is going to openly trash a product...ANY product. It hurts future sponsorship potentials.... Keep your head in the sand. People with MUCH more experience than you have seen problems with them...Just to inflate your ego and be seen as cool, keep jumping it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorMark 0 #31 July 9, 2004 Hi Ron I never post on this forum and most probably never will again. But here are some facts. I feel AAD has addressed all the problems they have had in the past in a satisfactory manner. You are obviously not aware of what has been done. You do not own a Vigil. The reason you do not know what has transpired is that you are out of the loop. Ask a Vigil owner if they have been kept up to date on what has happened and how problems have been addressed. No one has been denied information concerning their Vigil's. AAD's actions have been above and beyond what we normally see in this industry. Their initial reaction to the static electricity problem once they found out that this was the reason the units were firing on the ground, was to replace the mother boards on all the units with one that had higher static electricity shielding. They then decided to replace the complete unit with one that included a cutter and control unit built to more stringent specifications. They did this as AAD were not 100% sure if the unit that fired in the air was because of static electricity or some other cause. The unit that fired on the static line jump was directly attributed to static electricity (an aircraft moving through the air generates static electricity hence those stringy little things that hang of the trailing edge of aircraft ) All the replacements were done at no cost to the customer. With regards to the sponsor issues. Deland Majic jump their units and switch them on. I know this as three of the team members are personal friends of mine that I have known for the last 16 years. They have no reason to tell me otherwise me. With regards, to the French Team I am not sure what they are doing and neither do you. I know they did not jump the Vigil during the world meet last year as the units were grounded by the French Federation (The french Federation have approved the Vigil since then). The French team is a member and is employed by the Federation. There were however other teams jumping their units. This is all a mute point anyway because those units do not exist anyway. AAD now know that there was a problem with the beta units. All Beta units in the field have been replaced as previously explained. My point is the issues have been addressed and resolved. AAD never responded to the skydiving community at large. They never felt they had to explain themselves to anybody except their customers and address the issues they were dealing with at the time. Any communication and explanations to the skydiving community would have been in the interest marketing the Vigil and to sell more units. Their focus was on the customer and getting them in the air with a reliable product at no additional cost. Which they did. I will ignore your comeback with time will tell. Time will tell in all aspects of our life, and I can think of 100 replies you can say to that as well. Regards Mark Procos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chrisky 0 #32 July 10, 2004 QuoteAAD never responded to the skydiving community at large. They never felt they had to explain themselves to anybody except their customers and address the issues they were dealing with at the time. Any communication and explanations to the skydiving community would have been in the interest marketing the Vigil and to sell more units. If that's true that's the first company i hear of that doesn't want more customers or clear up misconception of their product. Or dumb. News of a misfire spreads like fire. Quote AAD now know that there was a problem with the beta units. All Beta units in the field have been replaced as previously explained. Having followed the Vigil since it's introduction stage (i was in the market and jumping in Belgium at that time), their info on what actually were Beta units (the demo units for testers) and what corrected A-Series models was very confusing. The in-air misfire in France (last summer, 1.5k) leading to it being grounded was claimed to be a beta unit, although their website said it was no different than the A-series ("final version to be sold"). After the in-air fire they claimed this unit to have had "different software"...Then the A-series went out with the static issue (fixed) and the Deland 3k misfire (reason yet unknown or untold). The 3k in-air misfire has not yet been cleared up by the company, or else, somebody would have found the info and conveyed it here, as there are not only anti-Vigil posters here. Of course the stories floating around of the skydiving members of AAD leaving the company for various reasons don't help building a reputation either. I disregard them personally as rumors, unless someone with a real name tells his personal story w/ backup. I would really like to see competition on the market, but personally i regard AADs info policy with a lot of suspicion. Part of it is due to the service bulletin stating that you can still jump it on static line jumps, just remove the cutter and shut it off. To reach these parts, you could remove it for that purpose straight away, why keep it in there? Anyway, if they want to convince me to buy one, i want to be well informed before i lay my money on the table and my life on the line. Kim has done a better job at that for me here on DZ.com than the companys website (unanswered emails) during it's entire time in existance. Still it will take a couple of years in reliable service and a higher price difference than 100 bucks to make me buy one for my next rig.The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #33 July 12, 2004 QuoteI feel AAD has addressed all the problems they have had in the past in a satisfactory manner. You are obviously not aware of what has been done. You do not own a Vigil. The reason you do not know what has transpired is that you are out of the loop Hi Mark, Well if I am "out of the loop" then Vigil is doing a really bad job. So they don't care to sell any more of the Vigils? Cause if they are ignoring the people who don't have one...Then we sure as hell will never get one. QuoteAAD's actions have been above and beyond what we normally see in this industry Well on this I disagree....RWS does a great job of informing everyone of any issue no matter how small. It appears to me that AAD ignored and hid information till they had a serious issue. Only then did they do anything. QuoteTheir initial reaction to the static electricity problem once they found out that this was the reason the units were firing on the ground, was to replace the mother boards on all the units with one that had higher static electricity shielding. They then decided to replace the complete unit with one that included a cutter and control unit built to more stringent specifications. They did this as AAD were not 100% sure if the unit that fired in the air was because of static electricity or some other cause. The unit that fired on the static line jump was directly attributed to static electricity (an aircraft moving through the air generates static electricity hence those stringy little things that hang of the trailing edge of aircraft ) All the replacements were done at no cost to the customer. I will agree that they are doing very well NOW...My issue is with them waiting so long to admit a problem, and then still not answering the I air fire at DeLand. BTW Mark....Does Skydive DeLand sell the Vigil? Didn't they take them all out of the student gear? QuoteWith regards to the sponsor issues. Deland Majic jump their units and switch them on. I know this as three of the team members are personal friends of mine that I have known for the last 16 years. They have no reason to tell me otherwise me. Who said we were talking about Majic? I never said diddly about Majic. QuoteWith regards, to the French Team I am not sure what they are doing and neither do you Do you KNOW I don't know, or are you assuming I don't know? QuoteMy point is the issues have been addressed and resolved. AAD never responded to the skydiving community at large. They never felt they had to explain themselves to anybody except their customers and address the issues they were dealing with at the time And that is bad buisness....And they STILL have not said squat about te in air fire in deLand. BTW do you think Terry screwed up with the batteries? I don't. But they said he did. QuoteI will ignore your comeback with time will tell. Time will tell in all aspects of our life, and I can think of 100 replies you can say to that as well. Ok, and I hope I am wrong. BTW folks he works for Relative Workshop, and Bill Booth also owns part of Vigil... You do the math."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #34 July 12, 2004 Quoteand Bill Booth also owns part of Vigil...According to whom? How do you know that he does not just have USA distribution rights? Have you seen or have a copy of the contractual agreement?QuoteIt appears to me that AAD ignored and hid information till they had a serious issue. Only then did they do anything. Appearance doesn’t make it fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #35 July 12, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and Bill Booth also owns part of Vigil... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to whom? How do you know that he does not just have USA distribution rights? Have you seen or have a copy of the contractual agreement? Having the rights to be the US distributor of a product tells me that he has an interest in the product. Maybe he does not own part of the product...But he owns the distribution rights. Very small difference"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #36 July 12, 2004 QuoteMaybe he does not own part of the product...But he owns the distribution rights. Very small difference Huge difference.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #37 July 12, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe he does not own part of the product...But he owns the distribution rights. Very small difference -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Huge difference. I don't agree he has a large financial stake in the company."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #38 July 12, 2004 QuoteMaybe he does not own part of the product...But he owns the distribution rights. Very small difference Wrong! There is a huge difference between owning part of the company and having distributorship rights. Having distributorship rights gives you no control over the company or the product. For all we know Bill may have been screaming bloody murder to get changes made. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #39 July 12, 2004 HEY! Dont bust my chops! I agreed! Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #40 July 12, 2004 QuoteHEY! Dont bust my chops! I agreed! Sorry, it wasn't ment for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #41 July 12, 2004 Dear Kim, Don’t shoot the piano player. I did not create all these problems, Advanced Aerospace Designs did this themselves. So, pointing a finger at me and using expressions such as me having a lack of personal integrity and something to hide (your reply to me) plus ulterior motives and something to gain (your reply to Ron) is a bit out of the direction. I on the other hand just like to point in the right direction, my only concern is the safety of skydivers and I have no hidden agenda. I would never criticise if this was a good product coming from a reliable company. Time after time Advanced Aerospace Designs is promising their problems are solved and each time new problems are surfacing. Regards, Indiana PS In order to make life easy for everyone, I took the liberty to number the employees of the 4 different companies, of which your attached picture is composed, added their skydiving skills plus involvement in the project: 2,3 and 12 are employees of Declerck Electronics (designer of all Vigil electronics and owner of the Vigil software source codes). Skydiving experience: 8 tandem jumps (all together) 7, 8, 15 B&B Controls (the owner, his wife and the engineer). B&B is the actual manufacturer of the Vigil. Skydiving experience: 0 jumps 16 Sole employee of Advanced Aerospace Designs Skydiving experience: 0 jumps Jump experience of the people involved in design, manufacturing and sales: 8 Tandemjumps. This makes by my opinion their slogan "Vigil Designed and Engineered by 3RD Millennium Skydivers” a little exaggerated. 1,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,13,14 and 17 are employees of the French dealer: Pack Plus (www.packplus05.com). This French dealer operates out of Gap (800 miles south of Brussels) and is only since February 2004 involved in the Vigil. I.e. seven months after the Vigils introduction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #42 July 12, 2004 QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe he does not own part of the product...But he owns the distribution rights. Very small difference -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong! There is a huge difference between owning part of the company and having distributorship rights. Having distributorship rights gives you no control over the company or the product. For all we know Bill may have been screaming bloody murder to get changes made. Well he has a large financial stake in the company. That tells me that he has a vested interest in the Vigil not being seen as unsafe. Yes Bill has been a proponent for getting Vigil to make changes...Thats says good things about Bill, but still it does not say good things about Vigil. So one could easily see if he was the distributor that he would have an interest in selling them. Whats your stake in the Vigil? I have no stake in Vigil or Airtec...Only saftey."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diver23 0 #43 July 12, 2004 Quote ---------------------------------------------- PS In order to make life easy for everyone, I took the liberty to number the employees of the 4 different companies, of which your attached picture is composed, added their skydiving skills plus involvement in the project: 2,3 and 12 are employees of Declerck Electronics (designer of all Vigil electronics and owner of the Vigil software source codes). Skydiving experience: 8 tandem jumps (all together) 7, 8, 15 B&B Controls (the owner, his wife and the engineer). B&B is the actual manufacturer of the Vigil. Skydiving experience: 0 jumps 16 Sole employee of Advanced Aerospace Designs Skydiving experience: 0 jumps Jump experience of the people involved in design, manufacturing and sales: 8 Tandemjumps. This makes by my opinion their slogan "Vigil Designed and Engineered by 3RD Millennium Skydivers” a little exaggerated. 1,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,13,14 and 17 are employees of the French dealer: Pack Plus (www.packplus05.com). This French dealer operates out of Gap (800 miles south of Brussels) and is only since February 2004 involved in the Vigil. I.e. seven months after the Vigils introduction. ----------------------------------------------------------- I think this is totally irrelevant. I really don’t care if the designer/producer/etc. has 0 or 10,000 skydives. It is just an engineering project with certain parameters/variables. Maybe a non skydiver can approach this project without the sentiments of a skydiver (more open minded). Do you think all the people who sew harnesses and canopies skydive?! It is not that special. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #44 July 12, 2004 QuoteWhats your stake in the Vigil? None, as they don't make a two-pin version. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
indiana 0 #45 July 12, 2004 Quote It is just an engineering project with certain parameters/variables. Maybe a non skydiver can approach this project without the sentiments of a skydiver (more open minded). Open minded? Like the safety bulletins we have seen, which cost almost the life of a student? You exactly wrote what they thought: just an engineering project with certain parameters/variables. By doing so, they forgot some other relevant issues. QuoteDo you think all the people who sew harnesses and canopies skydive?! It is not that special. Nope, there are however not to many skydiving companies where the only skydiving experience is 8 tandemjumps made by the employees of a co-supplier. AAD has proven that their knowledge of skydiving and skydive technologie is far below the limit. Quote Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
