Jumpmaster?

[RustyOats 0]

Would anyone like to see their DZ staff a jumpmaster for each load? An experienced jumper that would be tasked to....

Set a landing direction by checking the winds just prior to exit (via radio)
Exiting last, observing traffic and dealing with those who break pattern rules and fly their canopies dangerously.

They could also,

Establish exit order.
Calculate winds aloft and ensure proper exit separation between groups.
Check people's "3's"
Make sure those on the load are qualified to jump their camera/wingsuit.
Try and stop some/all of the general stupid shit you see that could kill you/others like swooping in traffic, arguments about the exit order, exit spacing, chest strap undone, sit flying a rig without riser covers at 17 jumps etc etc etc.

I know we all hate regulation but some formal regulation at the DZ/per load level could very well fend off the federal type of regulation and save a life or two.

People are dumb and skydiving is not something that lends it self to a common sense approach. The fucking waterslide at the Hyatt has a lifeguard spacing people out and watching for lightening, it doesn't reason that each skydiving load could use someone who knows what's what and could help control what can be controlled? A lot of loads I'm on have people giving too much/not enough time between exits, people teaching the 45 degree rule to new jumpers and people doing shit tons of other stupid shit because they don't know any better or don't care because no one else seems too.

Would you pay a dollar slot for someone to enforce pattern discipline and prevent obvious and dangerous stupidity (other than skydiving )

Why or why not?

[JohnnyMarko 1]

And take that last slot on the 182??? Hell no!

[WickedOne513 0]

I haven't jumped in the civilian world, but I have jumped in the military and sounds a lot like a military way of doing things.

I am not saying this is a plus or a minus just pointing out.

[maggy187 0]

Everything listed can be done by the pilot, a vigilant up-jumper, a staff member, or any combination of the three... without ever leaving the ground.

[drewcarp 0]

The pilot? Pilots aren't always skydivers despite knowing a bit about skydiving and are plenty busy with their duties. Yes, a designated staff member (who is a skydiver) or experienced up jumper was what I had in mind as well. The point is someone taking some responsibility, which most DZOs and some skydivers seem to ahorr as much as regulation.

[CornishChris 5]

I think a jumpmaster should be nominated on every load (as is done in the UK) and that person should be held to account for the running of the load - exit order, separation etc. I don't think the DZ should pay for that person - many have a hard enough time making money anyway.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[mr2mk1g 10]

You basically just described the situation in the UK. It's not a paid position however, though often it's the camera flyer for the last tandem out so effectively 'staff' anyway.

[jsreznor 0]

It just amazes me that you could spend 20 minutes in a plane with other jumpers and NOT talk about landing direction.

We talk about it before getting on the plane. We talk about it before jump run. If the winds are shifty, someone steps up and makes a decision and the load sticks to it, even if we all end up doing downwinders.

Step up people. It's your own ass on the line. Consensus isn't that hard to find. Talk. COMMUNICATE.

And if you want me to come to your dropzone and call out landing directions for $1 a jumper per load, let me know. I'd be happy to take your money for being as responsible as everyone else should be.

[Abedy 0]

The idea has some charme, especially for DZ's with bigger planes such as Caravans or Otters etc.
The British/UK approach sounds even nicer. I think once all skydivers got used to the idea that one of them aboard is "nominated" to be their jumpmaster they will listen to him/her which would make some things easier.
I wouldn't like to pay for a jumpmaster unless I'm new to a DZ and be there for a boogie.... but then the jumpmaster would/should be the load organizer who is normally paid for by the org fee.
At our DZ here in Gera, germany, the "Sprungdienstleiter" is the guy in charge. He stays aground and:
- visually checks licensed jumpers (most of them don't even notice)
- fully checks students, newbies or "suspicious guys"
- announces the landing direction and if need be gives advice concerning wind, gusts and/or landing patterns, boundaries etc
- checks who is to jump out when and with whom and if need be tells about delays between groups etc
- radios students home
- talks to cheeky, cocky, risky, dumb and stupid jumpers - mainly separately and in a quiet but serious manner.
- organizes first aid if necessary - which, knock on wood! - is very rarely necessary!
Sounds demanding and I bet it is. No wonder we call him "The Eye"
If he thinks there should be someone doing a jumpmaster job in the plane (spotting etc) he asks a jumper (usually an instructor)

Well, sounds pretty nice to me. Of course - as I wrote before - there can be fartknockers who dangerously fly zigzag directly above the landing area etc and you think "SOMEONE should talk to him" or you think "I'm gonna tell him ASAP..." - well, in these cases you may be rest assured "The Eye" has already had or is going to have a word with the offender. It's them guys who more or less silently work in the background who organize a smooth running business :-)

Wow, what a long article just because I gave the idea some thought

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Coreefdiver 0]

Are they not teaching this stuff to students these days?

People need to man-up and be responsible for their actions and not depend on others to do things for them. Sure, being a student means you're learning, but once you have an USPA-A, you should have learned enough to be a safe skydiver (that you're not a danger to yourself or those around you), that includes jumping within the limitations of your skills/capabilities.

I've seen a lot of newbies with no knowledge of spotting, exit spacing, exit order, no thought of landing pattern, etc..

I think too many people are dependent upon others. that goes from exit order, exit and landing:
-someone mans up and polls the load to put together an exit order just prior to getting on-board
-people see a green light and all they know is "jump"
-people see others landing and follow everyone else in the patter, which is not bad, but what if they're the first out, then what?

I'm outta touch with what they're teaching nowadays, but I've decided to get back into things and at least get involved with coaching..
As it sits, I already address issues as I come across them and turn things into a learning opportunity for myself and others.

We need to police ourselves through education/mentoring, not assigning someone to take on the responsibility of others. If an individual(s) is/are causing problems and "just don't get it", then deal with them directly, don't punish* everyone.

*punish- place additional requirements upon, prevent/ban from doing _____, charge or cause the expenditure of monies

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[Ron 7]

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Establish exit order

This is already established.
1. RW large to small
2. FF large to small
3. High pullers
4. AFF
5. Tandems
6. WS.

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Calculate winds aloft and ensure proper exit separation between groups.

Given throughout the day already.

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Check people's "3's"

Unless you are doing a solo you have buddies to perform this check. If doing a solo, ask an instructor or an experienced jumper.

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Make sure those on the load are qualified to jump their camera/wingsuit.

Already done by every staff member

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Try and stop some/all of the general stupid shit you see that could kill you/others like swooping in traffic

A guy loading the plane cannot stop an idiot from swooping in traffic.

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arguments about the exit order

The exit order is stated there is no reason to argue about it.... Plus the ONLY time I have had people argue, one was working in an LO capacity and took a tracking dive out FIRST and sure enough tracked right up the line of flight.... I had our video guy film them.

You have provided lots of examples of stupid shit, but not given a reason why it requires an additional staff person performing those duties.

Try to get on the plane with less than 200 jumps and a camera.... One of our staff will stop you.

Try to exit in the wrong order... One of our jumpers will stop you. Argue about it and one of the staff will fix the problem.

Swoop in the general landing area and our DZO will yell at you. Do it again and you will be grounded.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DocPop 1]

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This is already established.
1. RW large to small
2. FF large to small
3. High pullers
4. AFF
5. Tandems
6. WS.

Could you explain why high pullers go third?

At my DZ, if I am pulling at let's say 12,000', I am last out. What is the advantage of your order?

Thanks

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Quote

This is already established.
1. RW large to small
2. FF large to small
3. High pullers
4. AFF
5. Tandems
6. WS.

Could you explain why high pullers go third?

At my DZ, if I am pulling at let's say 12,000', I am last out. What is the advantage of your order?

Thanks

I'm assuming Ron means high relative to other freefallers - maybe someone who is demoing a new canopy and wants to pull at 5,000 but is still going to freefall. I agree that someone who is pulling out the door should be out either first or last (I don't see CRW on Ron's list, but I've seen them go either first or last at different DZs).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Hellis 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

This is already established.
1. RW large to small
2. FF large to small
3. High pullers
4. AFF
5. Tandems
6. WS.

Could you explain why high pullers go third?

At my DZ, if I am pulling at let's say 12,000', I am last out. What is the advantage of your order?

Thanks

I'm assuming Ron means high relative to other freefallers - maybe someone who is demoing a new canopy and wants to pull at 5,000 but is still going to freefall. I agree that someone who is pulling out the door should be out either first or last (I don't see CRW on Ron's list, but I've seen them go either first or last at different DZs).

And he completly forgot about all the skysurfers too

But such a list does not work. You have to consider the skill of the jumpers.
A smal but novice group of FF will probably drift as much as a RW group, if they jump after the skilled FF they will all be in the same area at pulltime.

[Ron 7]

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Could you explain why high pullers go third?

high as in higher than 'normal' groups.

full altitude Hop 'n' pops would go last.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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And he completly forgot about all the skysurfers too

That is because almost no one does that anymore.

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But such a list does not work. You have to consider the skill of the jumpers.
A smal but novice group of FF will probably drift as much as a RW group, if they jump after the skilled FF they will all be in the same area at pulltime.

And if the jump BEFORE the skilled FF group they could easily track under the skilled group and might be pulling higher.

The list works most of the time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[matthewcline 0]

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Quote

And he completly forgot about all the skysurfers too

That is because almost no one does that anymore.

Quote

But such a list does not work. You have to consider the skill of the jumpers.
A smal but novice group of FF will probably drift as much as a RW group, if they jump after the skilled FF they will all be in the same area at pulltime.

And if the jump BEFORE the skilled FF group they could easily track under the skilled group and might be pulling higher.

The list works most of the time.

When proper exit separation is maintained this list will work every time.
It only fails when the "human factor" fails.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Ron 7]

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I don't see CRW on Ron's list, but I've seen them go either first or last at different DZs

CRW would go depending on altitude.... Most CRW I see done is either a high altitude Hop 'n' Pop for bigways (in which case they go last), or rotations or sequential (in which case they tend to jump out at 7.500 feet).

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[airtwardo 6]

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Could you explain why high pullers go third?

high as in higher than 'normal' groups.

full altitude Hop 'n' pops would go last.

Which of course means the high pullers would actually need to be pulling AT the altitude they say they will...not 'always' the case~

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

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When proper exit separation is maintained this list will work every time.
It only fails when the "human factor" fails.

Matt

With proper exit separation, ANY list will work everytime.

It depresses me that people are so concerned about pull altitude...You're pulling higher than me so I'll go first.

BS...utter and total BS.

It's not about vertical separation people, it's about horizontal....that's where separation comes in, not pull altitude.
*sheesh*

Vertical separation comes into play when you're not smart enough to get horizontal separation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah....somebody tracked up under me!
Yeah, yeah, yeah...you didn't give enough horizontal separation.

Now, you want to squeeze exit separation down? Take some salt with you...it will help with the taste of nylon.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[BIGUN 1,042]

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It depresses me that people are so concerned about pull altitude...You're pulling higher than me so I'll go first.

BS...utter and total BS.

It's not about vertical separation people, it's about horizontal....that's where separation comes in, not pull altitude.

So what you're saying is... just cause I'm pulling before you doesn't mean I won't have a mal and wind up passing thru you until I get my EP's done? I learn sumpin new on this here Internet thingie everyday.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.