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bigbearfng

Emergency exit-when?

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I'm posting here rather than to con't in incidents.
It was brought up in the Pitts Meadow thread that even if the pilot hasn't said to get out that some people would still exit and this was being questioned.
CspenseFLY mentioned that he would exit and he's a commercial pilot.
Also mentioned was that the pilot's first job is to fly and lastly to communicate, and may very well be too busy to tell you to get out, but you may be changing CG on the pilot.
So what about the jump pilots out there-what's your take on this one?

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I am not a jump pilot but to continue my thoughts in the other forum I think in GENERAL its a very bad idea to suggest its ok for anyone to bail without command from the pilot. We know what we are supposed to do, its in our rules and regulations. Someone doing something not commanded could lead to disastrous results. These pilots are under a lot of pressure of the emergency and assuming everyone is doing what they are supposed to. Why ad another link to the chain? At best an uncommanded bail will distract the pilot, even worse it could lead to a tailstrike, even worse it could offset the CG and send the whole plane down.
"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

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Having done 3 emergency exits, with one happening last weekend, always wait for direction from the pilot.

Just opening the door can make things much worse.

Last weekend we had the right engine go out on a Twin Otter at between 4,000 ft and 5,000 ft. If the door was open at the time or the door was opened before the pilot was ready it would have made the situation much harder for the pilot to deal with. But we had plenty of altitude and everyone waited for instructions from the pilot. Once the pilot was ready and gave the ok we opened the door and exited one at a time as instructed by the pilot.

Remember it's not just your life that is on the line.

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I'm posting here rather than to con't in incidents.
It was brought up in the Pitts Meadow thread that even if the pilot hasn't said to get out that some people would still exit and this was being questioned.
CspenseFLY mentioned that he would exit and he's a commercial pilot.
Also mentioned was that the pilot's first job is to fly and lastly to communicate, and may very well be too busy to tell you to get out, but you may be changing CG on the pilot.
So what about the jump pilots out there-what's your take on this one?



Rules are clear. The pilot is called Pilot In Command for some reason. If he says during an emergency that you have to leave the plane, you go. When he says to stay, you have to stay. If you jump when he's says to stay in the plane ...

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Rules are clear. The pilot is called Pilot In Command for some reason. If he says during an emergency that you have to leave the plane, you go. When he says to stay, you have to stay. If you jump when he's says to stay in the plane ...



If the pilot says stay, then absolutely stay.
I believe the questions come into play if the pilot is not saying either stay or go.
My personal take is if the plane is in an obvious death spiral, then I'm clawin' my way out. Otherwise sit and wait for the pilot to say what he wants.

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Our chief pilot gave a talk last safety day on aircraft emergencies. His take was that when the shit hits the fan, the pilot will have his hands full and the most likely situation is that he will tell you when you can get out, not when you should get out. If he hasn't told you it's OK to leave, then it's not OK to leave.

He also said that in cases where the plane is in an obvious and violent death spiral, quite often the people that got out didn't get there by choice, they simply found themselves outside the aircraft in free-fall after the G-forces ejected them from the cabin. Other people were kept inside by the same forces despite their best efforts to leave.

He also said that the best way to survive an aircraft emergency is to avoid having one. That means loading the aircraft properly, keeping the weight distribution as far forward under the wing as possible, not jamming too many people in the door upsetting the CofG on exit, use the restraints as that tends to keep the passengers where they should be instead of them all sliding around on take-off and don't fidget or move around too much until you actually need to.

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Personally I've done one emergency exit; it was a decision that me and another instructor made because it happened after the door was open on jump run.

Generally if the aircraft isn't configured for exit (flaps down, door closed, whatever) it's safest to stay in the plane and await instruction from the pilot. If you are in the process of exiting, then continue - do NOT climb back in the plane if you feel an engine go out! (for example.) If the plane is configured for exit but people haven't started exiting yet then it's a judgment call. In a Cessna I'd wait for the pilot; in a Skyvan I'd just get out, since there's no way for the pilot to effectively communicate to the people near the door.

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I can agree with your post.

Here is my list of emergency exits.

1. Cessna Caravan 10,000 ft, Engine loss, Not configured for exiting. Waited for pilot instructions and exited on command one at a time.

2. Cessna 206 loss of manifold pressure at about 2,500 feet. Pilot asked if I wanted to ride the plane down. I declined and I said hell no and exited. ( The door was removed from this plane )

3. Twin Otter, right engine loss between 4,000 ft and 5,000 ft, waited for instructions from pilot and exited on command one at a time.


Each time I had a very strong urge to get out of that plane. Nothing is better motivator then the engines making a loud noise and in the case of the Caravan the prop was locked in place and not moving. The first time I have ever seen a prop stationary in flight!

The 206 didn't make a loud noise, the pilot informed us of the engine problem and gave us the option of landing with the plane. Like I would really land with the plane when given the option of jumping! Especially a plane with engine problems!

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I’ve been in two emergency exits on a King Air. On both of those we waited for the pilot to tell us to exit. I was in one aircraft emergency on a 206 at 300 feet and as instructed by the pilot we remained on the plane with little to no chance of getting a canopy out above tall trees. The pilot did an amazing job of getting us turned around and back onto blacktop with a very rough landing and no injuries. In all three cases, as previously planned, the pilots were charged with making the calls.

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The 206 didn't make a loud noise, the pilot informed us of the engine problem and gave us the option of landing with the plane. Like I would really land with the plane when given the option of jumping! Especially a plane with engine problems!



How'd his landing go?
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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I'm posting here rather than to con't in incidents.
It was brought up in the Pitts Meadow thread that even if the pilot hasn't said to get out that some people would still exit and this was being questioned.
CspenseFLY mentioned that he would exit and he's a commercial pilot.
Also mentioned was that the pilot's first job is to fly and lastly to communicate, and may very well be too busy to tell you to get out, but you may be changing CG on the pilot.
So what about the jump pilots out there-what's your take on this one?



Rules are clear. The pilot is called Pilot In Command for some reason. If he says during an emergency that you have to leave the plane, you go. When he says to stay, you have to stay. If you jump when he's says to stay in the plane ...



There is a third option. Talk to the pilot. Communication works both ways. Yes, he's busy but it may be that he's so overloaded he's forgotten about the people in the back.

I've been in two aircraft emergencies. The first was a tandem load. With a couple of thousand jumps I was the least experienced on the load, all the others had more ranging from 3-9,000 jumps. One of the two engines failed at 10,000 feet. None of us thought to ask the pilot if we should get out on not. We assumed the pilot, who was also an experienced skydiver with several thousand jumps, would tell us to get out if he wanted us too. Trouble was he was so busy dealing with the aircraft, he forgot about us. We easily had time to get out. The plane landed with everyone on board and the weight contributed to the aircraft overruning the relatively short runway, over a small ditch causing the nosewheel to collapse. Fortunately there were only a couple of minor injuries.

The second was when the Skyvan had the double engine failure at the 200-ways in Eloy last year. Not to say that the pilot in this case wouldn't have given us the option to get out, but we were also very fortunate to have an experienced test pilot on board sitting near the pilot who liased with him to ensure we all left in the most efficient and safe way. Being at 18k when the first engine failed and having plenty of altitude also helped.

The point being, don't just bail out if the pilot isn't talking to you, they might be a bit busy. Try and communicate with them before you decide to leave!
Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

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The pilot said he had difficulty keeping the engine running, but he landed with out any other problems.


The really interesting landing was the Caravan. It was a dead stick landing! He used up most of the runway at Skydive Dallas. It kept gliding and it seemed like he was going to run out of runway.

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So what about the jump pilots out there-what's your take on this one?



Not a jump pilot, but a jumper that is a pilot and has flown jumpers.

From the pilots perspective... I'd want you to follow my instructions.

From the jumper perspective, I'd want out.

So, my personal rule is that if I think the plane is under control*, I wait for the pilot. If I think the plane is going to have issues that could lead to a loss of control... I am outta there.

* Losing an engine is not 'out of control', a canopy over the tail might be a good example of something that could lead to out of control (although several have really been non-events).

I have 4(?) emergency exits.

1. Queen air engine went out at 10k. Pilot told us to get out, we put out floaters.... Yeah, don't do that. I had
2. Cessna 185 blew a jug. We were ~4-5k. Pilot told us to wait, gave us a good spot, and told us to get out.

3. DC-3 Lost an engine. Pilot gave us a spot at ~10ish and we launched our group. A DC3 with a lost engine climbs about the same as one with two good engines ;)

4. Porter rudder trim started to run wild. Pilot gave us a spot and told us to get out.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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I haven't had any emergency exits (yet?) but our 182 engine was having issues yesterday. We were at about 9k and it started spluttering. I was pretty much ready to go anyway so I flipped my visor down ready to go on command. Pilot leveled out and tried again only to have the same outcome so he set us up to jump and said we should go. Wasn't an emergency at that point though, plane was flying fine. Jump was over pretty fast though. Talked to the pilot afterwards, I mentioned that he looked annoyed, he was. :D:S

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9-1-1



We were at 24,000 feet over G range and the FAA says you can’t use a cell phone in an aircraft in flight. :P

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(I orginally posted in the Incident Thread, but moved it here because its general in nature.)

Following up on your suggestion to communicate with the pilot:

At what point would asking the pilot become acceptable for an ordinary jumper on the plane? Particularly where the altitude is clearly ok, and where the pilot may be focused exclusively on diagnosing the situation. I'm not suggesting that jumpers should immediately get in his face and become a distraction right off the bat, but after a reasonable enough time has passed where he should have had enough time to respond to the immediate control issues plus additional time for an opportunity to have going through at a few cycles of diagnosing the situation. I'm thinking something along the lines of "Hey, you want us to get out and lighten the load?"

So I'm interested in thoughts about doing this, and when, and how.

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