dgermano 0 #51 April 12, 2011 Maybe just make it clear that nobody should even pass through that HP area on the way to the main landing area. If that means landing out because you don't have the altitude to go around, so be it. If we really want to put safety first and we create a HP zone for that reason, it is nonsensical to then allow non-HP traffic through that zone below a thousand feet. Much like we teach students not to cross the runway below XX feet due to TRAFFIC. Imagine that. Might not work for all DZ setups, but I imagine it could with a little effort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #52 April 12, 2011 "Why Separate HP & Standard Landing Areas Aren't Enough"....? Nothing, short of not jumping anymore, is ever enough. What is the point of this re iteration of this. Nothing new is being said in this new posting. As long as you deal with people, mistakes will be made. Discussing the exact same thing over and over with 20 different people replying and thus 20 different opinions will not help. In the end you will always end up with a plane full of people that all jump out and open their canopies at some point, and they all want to land on the dz. Maybe a jumprun per person will solve it all.. But props in advance to the person in this thread who will come with the ultimate solution. (not jumping at all doesnt count, i already said that) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #53 April 12, 2011 QuoteIn my case, I saw him, knew he was there, but he was above me, and though I knew he was going to do a 270, I had not a clue where I should fly to avoid him. All I knew was that he was going to do a radical turn and land somewhere.. It sucked. I have never felt more vulnerable under canopy than then.. If that, coming from an accomplished Crew Dog, doesn't tell you anything, you've got your head up your butt and you're not listening.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtiflyer 0 #54 April 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteIn my case, I saw him, knew he was there, but he was above me, and though I knew he was going to do a 270, I had not a clue where I should fly to avoid him. All I knew was that he was going to do a radical turn and land somewhere.. It sucked. I have never felt more vulnerable under canopy than then.. If that, coming from an accomplished Crew Dog, doesn't tell you anything, you've got your head up your butt and you're not listening. That story me tells me that the camera guy had his head up his butt. While swooping is fun and all, it is not required on every jump. Its a privilege we should not take for granted. I am all for making landing situations safer, but until every jumper is on the same page and will follow DZ set rules its not gonna happen. Their are far too many Mad Skillz egos out there, but HP and non-HP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #55 April 21, 2011 Last week, my DZ initiated new procedures starting with separate "staging areas" combined with continued separate landing areas that we've been doing for some time. We've effectively created separate air space for both types of patterns from opening to landing. Now comes refinement, enforcement, and continued input and support from our staff, organizers, seasoned up jumpers, newbies, and AFF students. The idea is to get HP pilots and non-HP pilots separated as soon as possible after opening with each type of pilot occupying air space with similar pilots and allowing them to "stack it up" and fill their slot once in the pattern. Horizontal and vertical separation in the staging areas will be emphasized. Its not perfect, but its a start and we can see how practical it is and how well it is enforced.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #56 April 21, 2011 I like the sound of this. If I understand right, you are splitting the load in two by consideration of their landing intentions. This in turn dictates their holding area, pattern and landing area. In addition, it probably goes a fair way towards separating high and low WL jumpers. Sounds simple and useful. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #57 April 21, 2011 Quote I like the sound of this. If I understand right, you are splitting the load in two by consideration of their landing intentions. This in turn dictates their holding area, pattern and landing area. In addition, it probably goes a fair way towards separating high and low WL jumpers. Sounds simple and useful. No, we don't separate by wing loading. They separate themselves to some extent. But there can still be a variety of wing loadings on either side of the separation. A lot of what we are doing is just presenting the common sense that should have been applied by everybody in the first place. We'll refine it as needs dictate. But the first step is to just get everybody more or less on the same page and going in the same direction, as it were. We've established some goals that everybody seems to agree on, and that's a good part of the battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 45 #58 April 21, 2011 Quote I like the sound of this. If I understand right, you are splitting the load in two by consideration of their landing intentions. Effectively, yes. Exit order is based on freefall portion of the skydive. After opening, pilots move to their dedicated holding areas or "staging areas" based on landing intentions. Quote This in turn dictates their holding area, pattern and landing area. In addition, it probably goes a fair way towards separating high and low WL jumpers. Most of the high >2.0 wing loadings will be in the high performance area. But there can still be different wing loadings on each "side". But yes, holding area, pattern and landing area are all separated by type of landing you intend to make. This does get people thinking about landing right after opening, and not waiting until 1000ft. Sounds simple and useful. Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-ftp- 0 #59 April 21, 2011 I think what he is saying is by having different holding areas it splits wingloadings up naturally to a degree. Ie. 1:1 loaded canopies are not going to be doing much of an HP landing. I think this is a great start! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #60 April 21, 2011 QuoteI think what he is saying is by having different holding areas it splits wingloadings up naturally to a degree. Ie. 1:1 loaded canopies are not going to be doing much of an HP landing. I think this is a great start! Yes, that's why I said they will separate naturally. Jackets said about the same thing. He and I and the DZO have been working on this for some time, and he's been doing a great service for our dz community. I appreciate that you think it is a good start. I know jackets appreciates it too. Far too much of this work is literally thankless. But, as he and I have both said, it is a work in progress, and it will be adjusted as needs show us what needs improvement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #61 April 22, 2011 QuoteI think what he is saying is by having different holding areas it splits wingloadings up naturally to a degree. Ie. 1:1 loaded canopies are not going to be doing much of an HP landing. Thanks. That's exactly what I was intending to say. Yup - you guys have come up with a workable move towards a solution. It's not a universal cure-all, but that probably doesn't exist. This is a helluva good start, in my humble opinion."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
