Interesting Cloud Cover Opinion

[matthewcline 0]

I am posting this here as it seems a "Training" item.

We so often talk about cloud "busts" I asked an FAA Inspector and Skydiver how does one know if he is in danger of a violation with out some high tech laser widgetry?

His answer came in a few parts and is paraphrased below:

Over Cast- If you can get high enough to exit, get out 500' below it PERIOD.

Broken, see over cast. FAA Defines Broken as 6/10 to 9+/10's cloud covered sky. You may get lucky and have the actual numbers to fall through a hole. But the recorded Forecast wont back you up if "violated".

Scattered- wait for the bigger holes, if you think the hole is not big enough, it isn't.

Few-stay away from them the blue is bigger.

Clear-have fun.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[airtwardo 6]

I wonder what the book definition is for Industrial Haze?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[matthewcline 0]

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I wonder what the book definition is for Industrial Haze?

Dunno, but the dude did say if the reading apparatus could not go through it, it was a cloud.

Funny story, we had these beautiful clear skies out side one AM. So we got all the gear ready to head to the training DZ. WE go to call out PIC and ask if he wants us to have coffee at the DZ for him when he arrives. He says he is still in bed as the AWOS said over cast at less than 100'! I said; "It's clear blue Sir!"

He never looked out the window just rolled over and went back to sleep, now he looks and says he will be there in an hour.

We get to the field and see the problem, an awning fell and then blew up into the FBO's roof, covering said reading apparatus.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[voilsb 1]

It looks like he never quite answered your question. How can he tell from the ground if you got out 500' or 100' below the overcast cloud?

Brian

[matthewcline 0]

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It looks like he never quite answered your question. How can he tell from the ground if you got out 500' or 100' below the overcast cloud?

Well, as we were talking about Busting Clouds, "Busts", I think he understood. Even if some one is only 100' below he didn't "bust" the cloud, and yeah I know "he" is still wrong.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 3]

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It looks like he never quite answered your question. How can he tell from the ground if you got out 500' or 100' below the overcast cloud?

Well, as we were talking about Busting Clouds, "Busts", I think he understood. Even if some one is only 100' below he didn't "bust" the cloud, and yeah I know "he" is still wrong.

Matt

It's not the cloud, it's the airspace surrounding it; cloud clearance.

If the AWOS is measuring 3,000 and the PLANE is at 2,900, then obviously the skydiver busted the cloud clearance because the airplane did. How does the FAA know the airplane busted it? Well, a Mode C transponder has altitude information associated with it and they'd most likely have access to that is they really wanted to make a stink.. While not absolutely required in ALL areas of the country, Mode C transponders are required in a huge portion of it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[chuckakers 370]

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Scattered- wait for the bigger holes, if you think the hole is not big enough, it isn't.

So your friend/FAA dude has a calibrated eyeball? "Scattered" can mean anything from clearer than broken to not exactly a "few" clouds. That's a damn big range, and way too vague to define a violation based on made-up forum scenarios.

If the clouds are so tight that you can't reasonably say they meet minimums, they probably don't. Beyond that, the feds are going to have a tough time making a case unless you actually punch a cloud...probably.

Did you bother to ask how many jumps he/she has made in "illegal" conditions?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Skydivesg 6]

The real problem IMHO is the 2000 foot clearance rule.

In order to clear clouds horizontally by 2000 feet we would need 4000 feet between those clouds.

In my experience there seems to be a lot of days that don't look like 4000 foot holes in the clouds.

I think most pilots with a couple hundred hours have busted that rule a time or two, probably before they took their check ride.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[JohnRich 4]

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In order to clear clouds horizontally by 2000 feet we would need 4000 feet between those clouds.

Yes, but even that's not too great of a restriction. Most runways that DZ's operate from use runways about that length. So all you need is a hole big enough to see both ends of your runway through. That's a good reference to eyeball guesstiimate the hole size while spotting to determine if it's legal.

[kuai43 7]

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In order to clear clouds horizontally by 2000 feet we would need 4000 feet between those clouds.

Yes, but even that's not too great of a restriction. Most runways that DZ's operate from use runways about that length. So all you need is a hole big enough to see both ends of your runway through. That's a good reference to eyeball guesstiimate the hole size while spotting to determine if it's legal.

That would depend on how you're "guesstimating". If the cloud layer is at the same elevation as the field, then yes, you've got a 4000' hole - but if that's the case, you've now got other problems to deal with.

Supposing the clouds are at 5K' and you're at 10K' AGL, if you see a hole that just shows you the ends of a 4K' runway, the width of the hole is only 2K'.

If I'm peeking through a keyhole, I can see an elephant.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[JohnRich 4]

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In order to clear clouds horizontally by 2000 feet we would need 4000 feet between those clouds.

Yes, but even that's not too great of a restriction. Most runways that DZ's operate from use runways about that length. So all you need is a hole big enough to see both ends of your runway through. That's a good reference to eyeball guesstiimate the hole size while spotting to determine if it's legal.

That would depend on how you're "guesstimating". If the cloud layer is at the same elevation as the field, then yes, you've got a 4000' hole - but if that's the case, you've now got other problems to deal with.

Supposing the clouds are at 5K' and you're at 10K' AGL, if you see a hole that just shows you the ends of a 4K' runway, the width of the hole is only 2K'.

If I'm peeking through a keyhole, I can see an elephant.

Adjust accordingly.

[matthewcline 0]

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Scattered- wait for the bigger holes, if you think the hole is not big enough, it isn't.

So your friend/FAA dude has a calibrated eyeball? "Scattered" can mean anything from clearer than broken to not exactly a "few" clouds. That's a damn big range, and way too vague to define a violation based on made-up forum scenarios.

If the clouds are so tight that you can't reasonably say they meet minimums, they probably don't. Beyond that, the feds are going to have a tough time making a case unless you actually punch a cloud...probably.

Did you bother to ask how many jumps he/she has made in "illegal" conditions?

His point was unless you hit a cloud, he would not even consider "Violating" a skydiver if it was "Scattered" or better.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!