Landing with brakes

[Euroman 0]

Given - Spectra 190, light wing load .9, winds 10.
Assume - Not going to use S turns, 90's or crosswind landing. Also this is a H&P no one else in pattern.
Situation - On final you notice you will be long (into the trees). So you give 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.
Question - Should you slowly release toggles to gain full flight prior to normal flare or can you hold brakes and finish flare from the partial brake position?

[voilsb 1]

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Given - Spectra 190, light wing load .9, winds 10.
Assume - Not going to use S turns, 90's or crosswind landing. Also this is a H&P no one else in pattern.
Situation - On final you notice you will be long (into the trees). So you give 1/4 to 1/2 brakes.
Question - Should you slowly release toggles to gain full flight prior to normal flare or can you hold brakes and finish flare from the partial brake position?

You can do either one, especially at that wingloading. I've done both with a Storm loaded at 1.5.

Although, in your situation you'll probably find yourself going even farther into the trees if you apply that amount of brakes. Since turns are out of the question in this scenario, I would say flare to at least half brakes, and prepare for a tree landing. If you get to 3/4 or deeper brakes, you *might* start "sinking" because of the 10mph wind, then just prepare for a PLF.

Ultimately, your biggest problem will be turbulence off the trees you're about to hit.

Brian

[AggieDave 6]

On a modern ZP canopy, you'll find that adding control input will lengthen your glide. You will land further away then you would if you had flown in full flight. The difference is that you can reach a point in which you match the winds that you are flying into, but then you're flying in winds that would have you backing up when you fully flare your canopy. At that point, your chain of mistakes started with making the skydiving in those conditions.

The best thing to do is to not be in that situation in the first place. That starts long before you board the plane by planning your canopy dive flow. If you know that in X winds you tend to use your "medium" canopy pattern, then you will be able to place that pattern appropriately to keep from flying towards an obstacle. Moreover, being put in a position where you would land that close to an object while flying into the wind will put you in a seriously bad spot for wind rotors and other turbulence. That is not where you want to be and that is fixed by planning your dive flow.

While flying towards an object on final, you'll find that a minor shift (just a couple of degrees) in your direction can dramatically change where you land. Beyond that, flat turns and PLF can and WILL save your life.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[faulknerwn 36]

Generally with that much wind, 1/2 to 3/4 brakes should have you pretty much going straight down. Once your canopy matches the wind speed, you don't have to go down any farther unless you need to back up. On my 1.3ish loaded canopies, I can go backwards in deep brakes in a 15-20 mph wind. Straight down is easy.

You will get a better flare if you release brakes, but it depends on where you are going to land. If you don't have room to drive forward without hitting an obstacle, flare from the braked position. If you have room, let back up at least 50 feet off the deck.

[popsjumper 2]

Read faulknerwn's post...that's what you are looking for.
All others need not apply.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[shah269 0]

SLOWLY let up a little to prevent "surge" correct?
And then flare accordingly?
Why would flat S turns be a no go? SLOWLY reduce pressure on one side then apply and then the other?
Sorry n00b questions.

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[voilsb 1]

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SLOWLY let up a little to prevent "surge" correct?
And then flare accordingly?

Correct. Keeps the wing over your head, but it's quite slow. At the presumed altitude, you could probably get from 1/2 brakes to 1/4 brakes by the time you start your flare.

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Why would flat S turns be a no go? SLOWLY reduce pressure on one side then apply and then the other?
Sorry n00b questions.

Because it's a scenario. In real life, possibly because of other traffic. Tree landing is better than a collision. If there's not traffic to contend with, a flat 90 or 180 degree turn may be appropriate, if it keeps you far enough away from the turbulence off the trees. Downwind @10mph winds is better than canopy collapse at 40 feet.

Brian

[DocPop 1]

This scenario should not arise because of the following:

The planned landing spot is downwind of the trees. It is taught that turbulence can extend downwind from the trees to as much as 10x their height.

Assuming 30 foot trees this means that the landing target should have been at least 300 feet away from the trees, so the jumper "notices' they are going to overshoot by 300 feet into the wind!!

This hypothetical pilot needs tuition on turbulence and canopy flight and may need to go back on the radio, IMO.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Euroman 0]

Appreciate the replies. Perhaps I should have ask the question in a slightly different way.... If you are on final in partial brakes, for whatever reason, can you just hold partial brakes and finish flare from that position. What would be the result?

[butlerhr 0]

Yes it can be done safely. It is a requrement for the 'A' license now as I recall. Be aware that the flare will be much less effective due to reduced air speed, so be prepared to PLF. It is something to try on every new canopy you fly so you can use it if you need to with out being suprised.
Butler

[Imanewdiver 0]

My last jump I came in on 1/4 breaks from my final turn. When it came time to flair I shoved the handles as far as I could but still hit pretty hard. PLF was not pretty but I got up and walked away. So on my large Navigator (student) it appeared to rob me of some energy. I will not be doing that again.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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SLOWLY let up a little to prevent "surge" correct?
And then flare accordingly?
Why would flat S turns be a no go?

Because you're generally not the only person in the landing area.

At a minimum using up space is impolite. Some one sets up their landing 1000' feet ago and you get in the way at the last second.

In the worst case situation it gets you and some one else killed because they run into you.

Technically speaking it might be their fault for not yielding right-of-way to the low man. Your heirs might get something out of the resulting law suit but you'd be dead and wouldn't get much satisfaction from that.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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My last jump I came in on 1/4 breaks from my final turn.

Not a problem. I've had gentle landings finishing final approach at 3/4 brakes prior to flaring at traditional accuracy/student wing loadings and 1/2 brakes with 120 square feet over my head.

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When it came time to flair I shoved the handles as far as I could but still hit pretty hard.

Figuring out when to flare is an issue and different from a full-speed approach. Do it too early (you'll accelerate after finishing and land hard), late (you won't slow down enough and will land hard) slow (you won't finish and will land hard), fast (you'll stall the canopy immediately and land hard), short (you won't slow down all the way and will land hard), or far (you'll stall and land hard) and you're going to crash land. You probably waited too long or flared too fast/far. Starting a bit early and not going quite far enough sucks less.

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PLF was not pretty but I got up and walked away. So on my large Navigator (student) it appeared to rob me of some energy. I will not be doing that again.

Learning how to land from a braked approach might save you and learning under a large canopy is more forgiving.

[david3 0]

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This scenario should not arise because of the following:

The planned landing spot is downwind of the trees. It is taught that turbulence can extend downwind from the trees to as much as 10x their height.

Assuming 30 foot trees this means that the landing target should have been at least 300 feet away from the trees, so the jumper "notices' they are going to overshoot by 300 feet into the wind!!

This hypothetical pilot needs tuition on turbulence and canopy flight and may need to go back on the radio, IMO.

I think everyone recognizes it isn’t the ideal situation to be in. The OP didn’t ask “How can I avoid finding myself in this situation in the future”. He asked about handling the situation once one finds themselves there. Any thoughts on that?

+1 @ faulknerwn

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I think everyone recognizes it isn’t the ideal situation to be in. The OP didn’t ask “How can I avoid finding myself in this situation in the future”. He asked about handling the situation once one finds themselves there. Any thoughts on that?

Well, here's my 2 cents. . . .

So you're faced into the very light wind, high on the target and heading for a line of trees. Worried about traffic around you, you don't want to S-turn to make the target. Fine. One option is front risers. On most modern canopies, that will increase your rate and angle of descent. Make sure you keep your toggles on your hands while you pull down on the front risers. You'll need those toggles for flaring.

Possible problems with this strategy? Several. You may hold on the fronts too long and land really hard. You may flare too quickly, balloon back up and hit really hard. You may still hit the line of trees and then hit really hard. So weigh all this info, but it is a valid technique.

Another option . . . fly towards the tree line in brakes, then make a slow braked turn right or left, up to 90 degrees to miss the obstacle. What about other canopies, you say? Well, you should be well below the downwind pattern, and the folks on final all landed well behind you safely. Anyone there with you is aiming for the trees also, and would do well to follow your example.

On a very windy day, using brakes to slow your ground speed is a good technique. The older F-111 7 cells were very good at flying steeply in brakes. I still prefer them for a very tight target area.

Practice this stuff if you can. Fly your canopy all the way to the ground. I've seen many a jumper forget this at 10 feet off the ground. That ruins more jumpsuits than anything else.

[DocPop 1]

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I think everyone recognizes it isn’t the ideal situation to be in. The OP didn’t ask “How can I avoid finding myself in this situation in the future”. He asked about handling the situation once one finds themselves there. Any thoughts on that?

+1 @ faulknerwn

I think the OP's question has been answered by others.

I was taking the view that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and trying to add a little more depth to the discussion as opposed to just "+1".

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[david3 0]

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Quote

I think everyone recognizes it isn’t the ideal situation to be in. The OP didn’t ask “How can I avoid finding myself in this situation in the future”. He asked about handling the situation once one finds themselves there. Any thoughts on that?

+1 @ faulknerwn

I think the OP's question has been answered by others.

I was taking the view that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and trying to add a little more depth to the discussion as opposed to just "+1".

It just seems people are quick to say “don’t put yourself in that situation” and now we can lock this thread. It wasn’t completely directed at you, I see it a lot on here and you happened to be the one I vented on. Like I said before, I think everyone recognizes it isn’t the ideal situation to be in so saying “don’t put yourself there” isn’t “adding more depth to the conversation” it is a given. If you find yourself facing the scenario the op layed out for us, having some ideas on how to handle it and a chance to practice them seems a lot better than wanting to turn back time and preventing it in the first place. Shit happens, now what can be done about it.

I understand thread drift happens on here but sometimes it seems like people just want to ignore the original post to hear their own voice (like I am doing now).

[Divalent 89]

Actually, this is not exclusively an academic situation that is best accomplished by avoiding the need to do one. To get an A licence you *must* deliberately perform a braked landing. It's a Category F item, and is on the proficiency card (item 3 under Canopy Skills: "Perform a braked approach and landing.")

[DocPop 1]

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If you find yourself facing the scenario the op layed out for us, having some ideas on how to handle it and a chance to practice them seems a lot better than wanting to turn back time and preventing it in the first place. Shit happens, now what can be done about it.

I agree with you, and I think others have answered the OP.

Maybe I should have just shut the f*&k up and kept my thoughts to myself, but I don't know the OP and I don't know that they are aware of the size of the danger area downwind of obstacles.

My intentions were good, even if they were misplaced or unnecessary.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[david3 0]

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Actually, this is not exclusively an academic situation that is best accomplished by avoiding the need to do one. To get an A licence you *must* deliberately perform a braked landing. It's a Category F item, and is on the proficiency card (item 3 under Canopy Skills: "Perform a braked approach and landing.")

You are correct it isn't only academic. When you find yourself performing an emergency exit over a wooded area and the biggest opening is a little tight you might need to land with brakes (just one scenario). There are many people on this site that never had to do a Category F. Sounds like a good idea.

[skybytch 259]

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Practice this stuff if you can

And if you think you can't practice this stuff, rearrange your priorities. Nothing is more important than landing safely.

Practice flaring, while you are above pattern altitude, on every jump. Practice flaring from full flight, from quarter brakes, from half brakes, from 3/4 brakes. To get the best possible flare from brakes you may find that it takes a bit different technique than you are used to.

Practice flat turns in both directions. From full flight and from brakes.

Practice. Practice. Practice. Eventually you'll know what to do in those situations because you will have practiced it.

Prevention is the best cure of course, but practicing canopy survival skills is a good second.

[popsjumper 2]

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Practice this stuff if you can

And if you think you can't practice this stuff, rearrange your priorities. Nothing is more important than landing safely.
.
.
Practice. Practice. Practice. Eventually you'll know what to do in those situations because you will have practiced it.

Prevention is the best cure of course, but practicing canopy survival skills is a good second.

Good stuff!
Let me add my $0.02 for the OP....
Skybytch is right on target - Prevention is the best cure. I also think that, even with the best intentions of prevention, it's only a matter of time before those skills are going to be absolutely needed to land safely. It's a good idea to have that knowledge and skill before you're going to need it. Education and practice, practice, practice will do it for you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239