Reflex CATAPULT system

[billbooth 10]

I actually don't know. I usually get reports of problems on my gear, but often do not hear about problems on other gear. Any way, horseshoe malfunctions, on main or reserve parachutes, are so rare, and there are so few Catapult systems out there, that the chances of anything happening, positive or negative are very slight. There are some situations where that second reserve pilot chute will help you, and some where it will kill you. I just happen to believe that the "kill" situations way outnumber the "save" situations.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter if you get killed by a rare, or a common malfunction does it?...You're still just as dead.

[diablopilot 2]

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Do you really still want a Catapult?

For my personal situation, yes. If the system is designed well, the risk of that happening is minimal. The bridle would have to split the difference exactly in between the point at which the two pilot chutes were pulling with equal force, and then stay there. If that happened, my bet is one P/C would over power the other shortly, and pull through. Probably why the second (Catapult) P/C is a)smaller than the primary, b) isn't snag prone (no spring), and c) has a very clean/simple attachment point.

All systems have a failure/malfunction rate. Catapults, AAD's, reserves, RSL's, 3 rings, ect. I've seen video of a persons hook knife which was attached to their rig in a commonly accepted fashion fly off on deployment, hit a couple of lines on the main canopy and cut them like butter. What if that had happened to the reserve canopy? Does that meen I shouldn't wear a hook knife?

ALL systems can be made to look like black death if you spend some time doing it. Jump Shack will tell you that 1 pin rigs are inferior, and poptops are faster deployments.

Some gear decisions are about risk management. Personal decisions. I would take the Catapult if I could. I'd jump an RSL if I didn't jump camera. I would love it if every manufacturer could incorperate a Colin's lanyard into their systems.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggermick 6]

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The pull generated by a 2" reserve pilot chute bridle in a horseshoe configuration is about 2 pounds. I published a video recording that fact about 20 years ago. Reserves weigh at least 5 pounds. Plus, all modern reserve containers add a "containment" force to keep the reserve bag in the container during pilot chute hesitations, to prevent out-of-sequence deployments (which, by the way, have killed several jumpers using older containers without this safety feature). So, it usually takes at least 10 pounds of force to remove a reserve bag from its container. Therefore, a horse-shoed reserve bridle does not generate nearly enough force to pull your reserve bag out of its container. This is a good thing, because it prevents out of sequence deployments due to pilot chute hesitations.

The basic problem with two reserve pilot chute systems like my Vortex (which I developed years before the Catapult, but did not market) or the Catapult itself, is that they cannot tell the difference between a pilot chute hesitation (very common) and a reserve horse shoe malfunction (very rare). So, the second pilot chute on these systems can easily pull the reserve free bag above a hesitating primary (spring loaded) pilot chute, allowing that pilot chute to get into the lines below the free bag, thus totaling your reserve. So, the Catapult system actually encourages out of sequence reserve deployments, which as I said above, is a very bad thing. I tried to solve this problem with the Vortex, but was unable to do so. The Catapult does not solve it either.

Wow,
Where to start? Ok, Mr. Booth states that if the primary pilot chute hesitates and the Catapult begins lifting the free bag out of the pack tray the primary (spring loaded) pilot chute could somehow lock the free bag if it can get to the lines. I'm not seeing this because in all of the scenarios that were ground tested we could never get a bag to stay closed, sure we had bridle passing through lines, around lines and risers but in each case the canopy came out of the bag and the lines could expand to allow for inflation.

Due to the placement of the Catapult at 1/3 the distance from the bag relative to the primary pilot chute there is always a differential pressure exerted on the bridle. The equilibrium of two pilot chutes pulling at the same time that is often spoken of just isn't there.

The significant differences between the catapult and Vortex systems are secondary pilot chute placement and how it's attached. The Vortex had the secondary pilot chute somewhere around the mid point of the bridle and the bridle ran right up through the center of that pilot chute. This configuration allows for relative parity in initial pull forces if both pilot chutes are out at the same time. However when the second pilot chute reaches the point that the bridle starts to up end it, it becomes useless and that's where the problems start. At this point you have a deploying free bag that's just hovering, not a good situation. The catapult by contrast has its attachment point at its base, this allows for positive pressure to be kept on the bag until line stretch regardless of bridle proximity.

The next time anyone has a Reflex with a Catapult installed try the scenario Mr. Booth describes on the ground, you'll see what I'm talking about. I'm not in the industry anymore and have no financial stake in either the Reflex or Catapult systems so one can see I'm not "touting my product". I suggest that anyone who has doubts about this subject try it on the ground. The math and physics don't lie.

The Catapult has not killed anyone but has had four or five saves that I know of. I could have changed the outcome of several fatalities involving ring sights/ reserve pilot chutes that have occurred over the last few years. I designed this system because I believe in it and those of you that know me understand I'm not some misguided idealist or moron who doesn't know what he is talking about. If anyone wishes to contact me privately I can be reached at [email protected].

Thanks for your time and interest in this subject.

Mick Cottle (you know the rest).

[pilotdave 0]

I happen to have my reflex unpacked at the moment in my closet. Maybe I'll have to pull it out and play around a little.

Got any catapult testing videos?

Dave

[diablopilot 2]

Thanks Mick.

See ya at the Dz....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggermick 6]

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Let's say that you have a main horseshoe malfunction, and you are going to have to dump your reserve up through it. Now let's say you have not one, but two reserve pilot chutes on your reserve bridle, which are connected so as to form a letter " Y ". What are your chances that that " Y " shaped junction, with a pilot chute on each upper end, is going to make it up through, and past, your main horseshoe. Not very good, I think. Do you really still want a Catapult?

Bill,
The Catapult was NEVER designed to defeat a horse shoe main parachute malfunction. Of all the main/ reserve entanglments that happen is't a 50/ 50 crap shoot that your reserve will deploy even with one pilot chute. I have lost a few freinds over the years to main/ reserve entanglements, from no cutaway, line snagging and risers breaking. I also would not knowingly put my freinds and loved ones who jump Reflex/ Catapult systems in a situation that would harm them, to imply otherwise borders on character assination. I will not take that route.

regards

Mick.

[billbooth 10]

Sorry Mike. I have no financial interest in either system myself. I also have no interest in starting a fight. I was asked my opinion, and gave it. I put a lot of time and test jumps into dual reserve pilot chute systems. I wanted it to work out, but it just didn't. This doesn't mean I've given up on the idea. It's a good idea. I just means I haven't found a way around the objections I stated above, and therefore believe the risk outweighs the gain.

The Skyhook was a similar project. I started, ran into dead ends, and re-started work on the Skyhook three separate times over a 15 year period, before I was finally happy with the design...And we won't know the real value of the Skyhook until hundreds of actual reserve deployments have taken place with the system, which will take years. The hand deployed pilot chute system took 20 years of constant improvements to get where it is today...and look at what we went through with AAD's before the Cypres was finally designed. The point is that all of these systems have benefits and risks, and only years of use by real live skydivers will tell the tale. I sincerely hope that I am wrong about the Catapult.

[xblackendsoulx 0]

Yonatan,
For people not to add their $0.02 cents around here is rare. People argue over everything on these Forums. You will get more the your moneys worth around here. I won't even get into topics that people have fought about. That would take this off topic post even further...

A

[gjhdiver 0]

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I just came across a REflex and when I opend it I found the Catapult Chute in it....I was wondering what you people thought of the system, good or bad or non of the above.....Love to hear what you all have to sya about it.....

Thanks

Before my current endorsement deal, I was enoidrsed by Fliteline, and had two Reflex's. I put about 2000 jumps on them, used the reserve and it worked just fine with the catapult installed. Comparissons between that system and Relative Workshop's Vortex are meaningless, because the design and physics of the two systems are vastly different. Just becuase the Vortex didn't work, does not reflect on the design of the catapult, which I believe works just fine.

If I still jumped them, they would have the catapult in them.

[billbooth 10]

The Vortex and Catapult systems are identical, except that on the catapult, the secondary pilot chute is attached to the primary bridal so as to form the letter "Y". On the Vortex (never marketed) the primary bridle passes through the center of the secondary pilot chute. There is no difference in function, except that the Vortex design is less likely to entangle with an un-released main or horse shoe malfunction. Both systems are a bad idea for reasons I have discussed here before.

[skydiverek 54]

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I had to shorten the bridle a bit to make the Skyhook work correctly.

What was the reason it did not work with the original length?

[michaelted57 1]

I have had a couple Reflexes over the years, and pack several for friends that have them as well. Some have had the Catapult on them and some have had it removed (the Catapult installed IS the standard configuration for Reflexes, by the way). I had two reserve rides on mine, and have seen several others over the years. The one (small) advantage of the Catapult that I have witnessed (I have not witnessed an instance where the catapult saved anyone) is that without the Catapult, once the reserve PC and freebag have left the reserve canopy and are drifting to the ground, the PC tends to turn over and plummet to the Earth due to the heavy cap. The Catapult acts as additional drag so the whole thing drifts to the ground at about the same speed as a regular PC and freebag and a cutaway main, thus usually making it easier to find (near the main) than it would be if it fell at a much faster rate and thereby drifted a different distance in the wind. I am not joining the argument over the merits of the Catapult in a lifesaving situation. I am only making this one observation from experience. Take it for what it is worth (not much).

[riggermick 6]

[ Some have had the Catapult on them and some have had it removed (the Catapult installed IS the standard configuration for Reflexes, by the way).


It is ONE standard of the Reflex H/C system, but not the only one. The Reflex is TSO'd (TSO c 23 d) for operations both with and without the Catapult secondry reserve pilot chute system installed.

During "normal " reserve deployments the Catapult system did not show an improvement nor did it show a degradation for reserve deployment during an emergency procedure. During such "routine" emergency procedures it acted as it was designed to do... it's job.

It's (Catapult) capability only comes into play when the primary pilot chute becomes unable to perform it's primary function (to deploy a reserve canopy) and therefore requires the reserve canopy to be deployed by other means (drag producing devices such as the free bag bridle and or assistor pockets), Because of and due to this unuiqe atribute (over coming the drag issue), this is where it's usefullness ends.

It was never considered to be a reserve/ main entanglement clearing device and does not not support that capability, nor has it ever claimed to be.

Fliteline Inc . Recorded several saves attributed to Catapult due to primary reserve pilot chute failure, snag/ hang ups involving the using jumper and/ or his/ her equipment (eg: ring sight/ harness/ container/ feet etc). This emperical evidence has supported the the original stated use(s) and outcome(s) of the system as being entirely what the original claims are based upon.

Any infererence to capabilities outside of the aforementioned stated operating paramiters are beyond the designers origionial intentions and of the systems capabilities in performing those percieved objectives.

THIS!!!!!!!
is what I designed and built to overcome: A potentially fatal situation ( that had me 1.5 seconds from impact at terminal) without the need to claw my gear to shreds prior to the point of OF GETTING A DEPLOYMENT BEFORE IMPACT!!!!!


ENOUGH SAID?


THAT IS, MY FRIENDS.....THE ESSENCE OF THE CATAPULT AND IT'S ORIGINS.



Have I made my point NOW!!!!!!!

God I f..kin hope so!!!!


Live life and enjoy, it's wayyyy too short.

Mick.

[dpreguy 14]

Reading these comments was great, as it made me recall the discussions attending the introduction of this device years ago. Thanks to all of you for updating the info and contributing current insights and opinions. However, my two questions are not related to any of those discussions.

Your commment, "... Catapult ...standard configuration for Reflexes", prompts me to ask question 1.

Question 1: Was the Catapult feature an OPTION to be selected, or omitted when the assembly was purchased?
If it was an option, Question 2 need not be answered.

However, If it was a (pick one; "standard configuration/requirement/factory assembly not to be tampered with", whatever,) then I'd like an answer to question2. - I am not at my loft to reread the Reflex manuals, so the answer may be right there)

Question 2: If a rigger is presented with a Reflex for an I&R, and the Catapult pilot chute is NOT on the bridle, should he pack it as is, or insist the owner have one put on? Or is it the owner's choice?

[kkeenan 13]

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I just came across a REflex

Not about the Catapult, but the Reflex container. You should check (or have someone check) the tightness of the grommets in the container. I believe that there was at least one fatality caused by entrapment of a main suspension line on the container (snagged on a loose grommet) causing a horseshoe, which led to a main-reserve entanglement.

Kevin K.

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Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[mjosparky 3]

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I just came across a REflex

Not about the Catapult, but the Reflex container. You should check (or have someone check) the tightness of the grommets in the container. I believe that there was at least one fatality caused by entrapment of a main suspension line on the container (snagged on a loose grommet) causing a horseshoe, which led to a main-reserve entanglement.

Kevin K.

When a rigger packs any rig he should do a search for AD’s, SB’s or any other for of notice pertaining to the container system and the reserve canopy. For the Reflex he would find FSI-SB-1004 and FSI-SB-1005 rev. (1) both of which address the grommet issue.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dpreguy 14]

I'm replying to my own post. Guess I should have read the manuals before wasting electrons. Sorry. I don't have internet at my loft. Had to go there to get the manuals.

Question1, Was the Catapult pilot chute installation mandatory?
Answer: (For the first Reflex models) quoting form the
Reflex Owner's Manual, 1st edition, July 1995, page 29.
"The CATAPULT secondary pilot chute system must (underlined) not be removed at any time. Removal of this system will void the TSO"

Answer: for Relex II:
Reflex II owner's manual, Feb 2002. Page 21
"Removal of the CATAPULT secondary pilot chute is allowed, but not recommended. Removal shold be performed by a Rigger".

I guess that's it. No need to belabor with Q 2.=Self explanatory.

Also:
Another quote, from page 21, Reflex II Manual, identical in both manuals.
Title of paragraph: The CATAPULT Horseshoe Malfunction Extraction System.
"The CATAPULT System was designed and developed as a more reliable and consistent method of reserve extraction during a 'Horeshoe' type malfunction of the primary reserve pilot chute......"

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