Bill Booth: Skyhook availability for non-RWS systems?

[CanEHdian 0]

Just wondering if there's word on if/when the Skyhook would be made available on other rigs?

Cheers,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[diablopilot 2]

At PIA Bill seemed pretty against the idea.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[koz2000 1]

Because, other manufacturers are different around the yoke, they would have to modify how the Skyhook works for their container.

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- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[darkwing 4]

I was in Bill's presence when he was asked this at Lake Wales a few months ago. My recollection (and I do not speak for Bill), is that among other things it is a TSO issue, and he can't sell reserve mods for other rigs, because the other rigs aren't TSO'd for the skyhook. The short answer is probably "never", unless the other manufacturers incorporate the skyhook into their certifications... That is my take on his response.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Rdutch 0]

Your best bet if you really want a skyhook, buy a vector3.

Ray
Small and fast what every girl dreams of!

[koz2000 1]

Agreed,
If anyone gets a chance to jump the RWS Skyhook cut-away rig, TAKE the opportunity! It will make a believer out of you.

D

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[Praetorian 1]

First I need to make clear this is just thinking out loud not in any way an attack at Bill !!!!!

When airbags, antilock breaks, and energy absorbing crumple zones were invented (I believe all by the same company but I'll have to check) the concept, plans and testing data were shared for FREE, licenced to every other car manufacturer for nothing. Now I dont want Bill to go away with no reward for his effort but you would think that the manufactures could get together come up with a reasonable deal and make the skyhook an option on every rig... not mandatory just included with the rig sorta standard equptment included in the price

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[markbaur 0]

I don't think there's a problem with licensing. There's a problem with engineering.

All harnesses are basically the same, so 3-ring releases are universal.

Reserve container design is not standard. It is up to the other manufacturers to decide if they want to change their designs to accomodate the Skyhook. When they're ready, I'm sure Bill will be happy to license his device, especially since his 3-ring patent has expired and is no longer generating royalties.

Mark

[ScubaSteve 0]

I attended a seminar at SDC a few weeks ago where Bill Booth covered the 3 rings and skyhook systems. I thought (not directly quoting Mr. Booth) that he was holding back licensing so other manufactures would not make their own version of the skyhook and would not follow design 100%. They may have problems and give the system a bad rap before it is mainstream. This is just from memory so probably not accurate. I was paying more attention to how the system worked. If anyone has a chance to sit in for one of these hour lectures, it is worth it.

[KellyF 16]

I suspect you won't see any licensing until a patent has actually been granted. There is a difference between applying for a patent, and actually getting it. Last I checked, there was no patent for the Skyhook, and I'm sure bill has filed for it. The TSO portion is is largely paperwork and some additional testing- not a complete re-TSO of the rig- last I checked, Skyhook equipped Vectors were still TSOed under C23b

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[diablopilot 2]

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When airbags, antilock breaks, and energy absorbing crumple zones were invented (I believe all by the same company but I'll have to check) the concept, plans and testing data were shared for FREE, licenced to every other car manufacturer for nothing. Now I dont want Bill to go away with no reward for his effort but you would think that the manufactures could get together come up with a reasonable deal and make the skyhook an option on every rig... not mandatory just included with the rig sorta standard equptment included in the price

And he did that for 3-rings.

Maybe, just maybe some people don't think the SkyHook is: a) nessisary, b)proven, c)worth the added cost.

"Know what I mean Vern?"

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[JFC3 0]

Yeah I was going to say, I remember from a factory tour that Bill didn't hold back on the three ring and shared it with every manufacturer because it was and still is to my knowelge, the fastest and safest way to cutaway.

That's why I jump RWS. Way ahead of the curve and still coming up with the safest equipment.

"Five days? But I'm angry now!"

[relyon 0]

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Way ahead of the curve and still coming up with the safest equipment.

Great euphamism, but what is the curve as related to skydiving gear and how do you define the safest equipment? To my knowledge, the majority of skydiving incidents do not involve engineering or manufacturing defects in harness/container systems.

Bob

[CanEHdian 0]

Mr. Booth - It would be great to hear from you on this one.

Thanks,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[billbooth 10]

The Skyhook will be licensed. Just when I'm not sure. It has now been "public" for just over a year. So far, so good. But as you know, reserves don't get used very often, so it will take a little while longer to get all the data I want before I let the device out of my direct control. Look what people did to my three ring release system...soft housings and reversed risers, to name just two disastrorus "improvements", "innovated" by other manufacturers. I've got to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to the Skyhook, although I'm not sure exactly how.

There are also technical problems with other rigs... ie. Racers, Javelins, and some other rigs don't have the reserve kicker flap that the Skyhook is mounted on in the Vector. They will either have to add the flap, or mount it somewhere else...either of which will require a lot of testing. To further complicate things, the "Skyhook" is actually three different sub-systems...the Vector RSL, the Collins' lanyard, and the Skyhook itself. Each of these sub-systems must be integrated into each different rig. Also, the Skyhook freebag bridle is a different length than "normal", and I'm not sure if other reserve pilot chute designs will affect Skyhook performance. ( A different pilot chute launch profile might affect reliability) We had to do a lot of "fine tuning" to get it to work reliably on Vector III's. (We haven't even tested it yet on Vector II's.)

Now as to cost. The Skyhook adds just $175 to the price of a new Vector (it's "free" on all tandem and student rigs we make). A new freebag and pilot chute costs $195, and the Skyhook greatly improves the odds that you will not lose them after a cutaway. So, if a Skyhook saves you just one freebag in your life, it is actually free, and you can buy a case of beer (on me) with the extra $20! So, if you have a lot of malfunctions, it might actually COST me money to sell you a Skyhook.

[Praetorian 1]

on the plus side if you lisence the skyhook to all manufactures they will end up loosing money on the freebags too so it wont just be you :)

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Praetorian 1]

In all seriousness I understand the wish to retrofit any existing gear with the skyhook, but if you could work a deal out with the other companys they could begin designing their "next" container to be skyhook friendly/equiped. Giving you some say in the implimentation of the skyhook in other company's gear to prevent the same type of problems you mentioned with the 3 ring, if the other companies have trouble paying you a fair fee to help/evaluate the designs or disaprove of you wanting veto power over the skyhook in their gear then thats their choice and one you can make public as to which companies choose not to work with you to improve the safety of the sport as a whole

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[CanEHdian 0]

Bill - thank you for the info, much appreciated.

Cheers,
CanEHdian

Time's flying, and so am I...
(69-way, 108-way and 138/142-way Freefly World Records)

[brettpobastad 0]

I don't care what anyone says, including Bill Booth. The Skyhook is an answer to a question that hasn't been asked yet. I'm all for marketing, but let us be up front about it. Where is the need?

[AggieDave 6]

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Where is the need?

How about a canopy collision at 400ft that rips out a few cells of your topskin or just flat out spinns up and collapses your canopy? According to the data, you should be able to cutaway and have a survivalbe reserve over head with a Skyhook from that altitude.

What about a low cutaway from a spinning main? The Skyhook gets the reserve out there fast enough that you don't even have line twists on the reserve.

Those are two that I thought of off the top of my head, I'm sure there are more.

You know, the Capwell system worked well, why did we need to change? I'm sure folks said the same thing about the 3-rings when it first came out.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[USPA 0]

The other companies also would want the skyhook. Given the adaptions that have to be made on a rig, a manufactorer would first want to see if it becomes a big selling point. When they are convinced by the market, they have to chose for the skyhook. (RW is still the only one offering ballon pilots) I know of at least 1 other skyhook-like design which does the same, but works in another way. And yes it is new, and no I can't tell you how it works.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[USPA 0]

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Where is the need?

It's an RSL system with the RSL "bugs". I don't have to argue how many people would be saved each year by a proper functioning RSL do I?

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[billbooth 10]

Quote:[Great euphamism, but what is the curve as related to skydiving gear and how do you define the safest equipment? To my knowledge, the majority of skydiving incidents do not involve engineering or manufacturing defects in harness/container systems.]

It's true. Most fatalities involve humans failing to perform properly, not gear failing to perform properly. However, the Skyhook, like the AAD, performs a "human function", not a "gear function"...ie. An AAD does not make a reserve open any better. It simply "pulls" the ripcord...a human function, when the human fails to do it in time. The Skyhook, more or less, does the same thing. It "pulls the ripcord" when you don't. (It also allows the reserve canopy to open faster and softer, but that's another discussion.) So both AAD's and Skyhooks "make the person better", not the gear better, and therefore save more lives than "safer gear" ever could.

According to USPA, 25 jumpers, in the US, in the last ten years, failed to pull their reserve ripcord after a successful breakaway. That's 2.5 jumpers a year who might have been saved by an RSL. Remember, an AAD might not rearm and fire in time to give you an open reserve, when you breakaway below 1,000 feet. So don't think for a minute that an AAD makes an RSL redundant.

[Praetorian 1]

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It simply "pulls" the ripcord...a human function, when the human fails to do it in time. The Skyhook, more or less, does the same thing. It "pulls the ripcord" when you don't. (It also allows the reserve canopy to open faster and softer, but that's another discussion.)

Funney (to me at least) that you wouldn't point to the faster opening as the major selling point, I already have an RSL, and while if I cut away I'm sure its gonna beat me to the reserve I dont trust it to do its job I still plan on pulling my reserve. I'd treat the skyhook the same, its just that insted of feeling foolish pulling silver while the reserve is deploying I'll feel foolish pulling silver after the reserve has opened.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[rredman 0]

Thanks for all the great info Bill. I received my new Vector III a few weeks and am glad I ordered it with the skyhook, but I hope I never get to use it!

From all that I read, and all the riggers I talked to, there was no doubt in my mind that this is the way to go.