steveorino 7 #1 April 25, 2016 What are the qualifications to operate the ground radio for students? Please site source (BSR, SIM, etc plus page #) steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #2 April 25, 2016 steveorinoWhat are the qualifications to operate the ground radio for students? Please site source (BSR, SIM, etc plus page #) There are none, nor should there be. I have seen a huge variation in how different DZs treat operation of the student radio, and I think we should leave that alone and not try to specify a particular way of doing it. A DZ staff meeting should be able to easily make things consistent at a DZ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #3 April 25, 2016 A brain and a disciplined tongue.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,051 #4 April 25, 2016 Pathfinder School Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #5 April 25, 2016 As Peek says, none. As for desired skills, try to find someone with good radio communication experience. I pilot would be good or better yet, an Air Traffic Controller. At Brown Field in the 90s we had Terry Natschke talk down all our students. He had experience at both and was phenomenal. He could handle 4 or 5 students in the air at once and provide clear and concise instructions to all. Hell, he could even adapt to the occasional Japanese student. Ex: "not yet, not yet, frair, frair, flair". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RopeaDope 0 #6 April 25, 2016 BIGUN Pathfinder School +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 April 25, 2016 QuoteThere are none, nor should there be. A coach rating, minimum. Or do we let anyone teach unlicensed skydivers these days? If you're answering questions in front of a judge or jury, you're going to breathing a whole lot easier if they had an instructional rating of some sort. Not everything is spelled out in detail in the SIM/IRM, nor should it have to be.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #8 April 25, 2016 diablopilotQuoteThere are none, nor should there be. A coach rating, minimum. Or do we let anyone teach unlicensed skydivers these days? If you're answering questions in front of a judge or jury, you're going to breathing a whole lot easier if they had an instructional rating of some sort. Not everything is spelled out in detail in the SIM/IRM, nor should it have to be. The legal issue is real if there is an accident, yes. But from what I have seen over the years, it is better to have someone on the radio that actually wants the job and is good at it, that way an accident is less likely. If some kind of "rating" or endorsement is created, then a DZO may just hand the radio to whoever has the rating or endorsement (assuming that some organization has given them the okie-dokie on radio skills) and that person is likely to not be the best person for the job. It may just be their "turn in the barrel". I am also happy to report that most dropzones I know of are treating radios as more of a backup, much more so that in the past. So instructors are teaching canopy control, and hopefully the radio person does not need to do much. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #9 April 26, 2016 diablopilot Quote There are none, nor should there be. A coach rating, minimum. Or do we let anyone teach unlicensed skydivers these days? I'd agree with this, but earlier this year, I watched a young lady (first time AFF'er) Femur in because of a poor radio operator. The student before her was almost flown into trees! Same guy on radio!! A rating is nice, but common sense and competence are also a good idea. I'm not sure how we accomplish this or what test you'd have to pass?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude2000 3 #10 April 26, 2016 In Canada, I believe you need a minimum of a Coach 1 rating, and then the Ground Control Instructor (GCI) rating. Normally, our DZO is the one operating the radio. http://www.cspa.ca/en/ratings/become-instructor/gciPULL!! or DIE!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #11 May 1, 2016 good question as it is a serious and responsible task. I've seen everything from pivoting arrows,, to mega-phones and then eventually, to ONE way radios..... ( That always puzzled me as I thought it would be Fun !!! if the students could talk Back !! Our club has an instructor work the radio and the AFFIs carry it with them on the jump. Immediately connecting with the student,,after deployment. because of the nature of everything from the students themselves, to changing winds, to bad spots, to battery issues, to other glitches,,, sometimes a bad landing location can occur or a there can be an injury , at touchdown...Here is where, depending again on lots of factors, liability could be questioned.... SO take care,, if you have hard earned savings set aside, and personal assets, as well as Familial responsibilities. They might become at risk, Over any fluke landing mishap...Might be worth looking into a rider on the HomeOwners Insurance, for protection against That. Certainly, Taking a generally helpful approach in our sport and pitching IN where needed,, mixed with the experience to properly DO so... will lead some to want to take the raido.. And That's a Good thing. Just approach it carefully imho Me??? i'll pitch in by mowing the grass, emptying waste baskets, helping out with the grounds,,,,jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #12 May 1, 2016 I did my AFF in South Africa in 2002. You got assistance on your first fump (some kid holding up ping pong paddles on your final approach to give you help with your toggles) after that you were on your own for all successive jumps. The outs were thorny bush/scrub with the occaisional cobra sighting. I'm not an old-timer with the "in my day" stories, but I see that knowing that an instructor is going to talk you down on all your student jumps as being a mental crutch that doesn't really focdus the mind of the student in that he/she must understand how to do this."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #13 May 2, 2016 I'm a big believer that the ground control should have a Instructor rating, but I cannot find anything that is published that specifies it. I guess our friends up north (Canadians) have it written in B&W. I think USPA should have something written down, but no one is citing it. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #14 May 2, 2016 rmarshall234 or better yet, an Air Traffic Controller. I was a controller for 29+ years. I can tell you now, that pilots, under threat of federal penalties, listen much better than skydiving students. . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #15 May 2, 2016 diablopilot A coach rating, minimum. Or do we let anyone teach unlicensed skydivers these days? I think your idea is good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmarshall234 13 #16 May 5, 2016 JohnMitchell ***or better yet, an Air Traffic Controller. I was a controller for 29+ years. I can tell you now, that pilots, under threat of federal penalties, listen much better than skydiving students. . . Agreed! As a pilot I've always said....I'm not concerned about crashing, or getting lost, or mechanical failure...what I'm really afraid of is violating controlled airspace. Because if I do, it's guys like you that have to say those dreaded words: "are you ready to copy this phone number?". Argh! Btw, in almost all cases, Air Traffic Controllers are awesome! I love the service you guys provide and your skill and professionalism. It is no wonder the American aviation system is the envy of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #17 May 5, 2016 rmarshall234 it's guys like you that have to say those dreaded words: "are you ready to copy this phone number?". Argh! Ooo, I've had to say that a few times. Quote Btw, in almost all cases, Air Traffic Controllers are awesome! I love the service you guys provide and your skill and professionalism. It's our pleasure. I know what it's like to be on the user side of the fence too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #18 May 5, 2016 JohnMitchell ***or better yet, an Air Traffic Controller. I was a controller for 29+ years. I can tell you now, that pilots, under threat of federal penalties, listen much better than skydiving students. . . I had a radio as a student. I was also trained to fly and land the parachute without assistance. I had flown radio controlled models and I understood the concept and goals of the landing pattern from that experience. I remember my first jump and that the radio assistance was helpful. On other jumps any instructions in the landing pattern distracted from my efforts to make my best approach. Thankfully most of my instructors were good enough to talk to me about the level of help that I wanted and as long as they knew that I was okay, they left me alone. I really loved those that ask, "How much help do you want?" I remember seeing one student land on the pavement when a very minor move would have prevented that. He was following the radio instructions and was afraid to take matters into his own hands. Not from a safety standpoint but he wanted to do what he was told, so he just went straight instead of turning a tiny bit to avoid the asphalt. After that did the instructor told him, "If you need to turn, turn, kept yourself safe by all means."Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #19 May 5, 2016 dthames I had a radio as a student. I was also trained to fly and land the parachute without assistance. I had flown radio controlled models and I understood the concept and goals of the landing pattern from that experience. On other jumps any instructions in the landing pattern distracted from my efforts to make my best approach. Thankfully most of my instructors were good enough to talk to me about the level of help that I wanted and as long as they knew that I was okay, they left me alone. I really loved those that ask, "How much help do you want?" After that did the instructor told him, "If you need to turn, turn, kept yourself safe by all means." Our son was a tunnel instructor and student pilot before he started AFF. Needless to say, his air skills were better than mine, but I was happiest to see his canopy skills were very good from jump #1. Flying a pattern and flaring properly seemed to be second nature to him, but he said it was his ground school and pilot training. I like what your instructor asked "how much help?" That's the best way to gauge a student and give them the most effective instruction. I see some ground controllers that work themselves to death trying to micro manage the students. I simply tell them to go to the holding area (briefed prior to takeoff) and then start their down wind at 1000'. From there I'll maybe call their turn to base and final, definitely their flare. Making them more independent and my job easier, all at the same time. And yes, all of our students are trained that the radio is an aid, but they need to be ready to do it on their own. Also, we need to stop freaking students out about GENTLE turns close to the ground. Canopies need to be flown all the way down, yet I see students drifting all over, afraid to make normal steering corrections below 300'. There's a balance in there somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #20 May 12, 2016 JohnMitchell Also, we need to stop freaking students out about GENTLE turns close to the ground. Canopies need to be flown all the way down, yet I see students drifting all over, afraid to make normal steering corrections below 300'. There's a balance in there somewhere. As I coach, I don't teach canopy skills beyond explaining in the simplest possible way the drills that are required for the specific dive flow, and I don't insist much on them anyway. Except for one thing. Flat and Braked turns. I say, if you need one life saving skill out of the next few jumps, that's the one you want because you might need it at any time. It's not a low *turn* that is dangerous, it's a low *dive*.I'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #21 May 16, 2016 Di0 It's not a low *turn* that is dangerous, it's a low *dive*. I like that explanation. I'm gonna steal it and say I thought it up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Di0 1 #22 May 16, 2016 JohnMitchell *** It's not a low *turn* that is dangerous, it's a low *dive*. I like that explanation. I'm gonna steal it and say I thought it up. Steal away: if I didn't want it stolen, I wouldn't have posted it on a public forum! AHAH! :DI'm standing on the edge With a vision in my head My body screams release me My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theplummeter 14 #23 May 22, 2016 JohnMitchell ***or better yet, an Air Traffic Controller. I was a controller for 29+ years. I can tell you now, that pilots, under threat of federal penalties, listen much better than skydiving students. . . Unable, Legacy 1234 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Divalent 89 #24 May 22, 2016 Di0*** Also, we need to stop freaking students out about GENTLE turns close to the ground. Canopies need to be flown all the way down, yet I see students drifting all over, afraid to make normal steering corrections below 300'. There's a balance in there somewhere. As I coach, I don't teach canopy skills beyond explaining in the simplest possible way the drills that are required for the specific dive flow, and I don't insist much on them anyway. Except for one thing. Flat and Braked turns. I say, if you need one life saving skill out of the next few jumps, that's the one you want because you might need it at any time. I agree; these types of turns should be in every jumper's tool kit as early as possible. Here's a link to an excellent description of flat turns, braked turns, and flare turns. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2121715 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #25 May 25, 2016 Di0 It's not a low *turn* that is dangerous, it's a low *dive*. Absolutely agree!! And, I love the quote. Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
