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lanceav8r

Skydiving and Traumatic Brain Injury

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I didn't look carefully enough -- they used to offer an insert that had superior impact protection as well. I haven't found it yet, but one would hope they still did.

Here is the Protec upgrade for shock absorbency; they might not offer a closed-face one any more. When they had it, there was a picture of the Factory Diver.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Truth is there's nothing funny about being too safe... but be prepared to get cracked on if you show up with a motorcycle helmet. ;)



haaaaa! funny visual!

A good hard shell is perfect as long as it fits well and isn't too heavy. The last thing you want is a neck injury because of a bulky helmet. As long as the helmet is strong enough to protect you from a concussion injury then you're covered. If you're looking for protection from a skull fracture you're probably screwed anyway. Blue Skies!

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A pro-tec is a good choice and if you want to get a level higher,an HGU-55 Gentex helmet does have a styrofoam crush liner in it and is considered both noise and impact attenuating.



I have a Gentex and I have worn it jumping but not for skydiving.

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp55/mjosparky/Skydiving/FlightHelmet2.jpg

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The other fact is that the incident of TBI related to skydiving specifically is probably non existent to extremely low.



You are right .The deceleration injury that kills most skydivers is a torn aorta. There may some TBI but that is not what kills them.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I wouldn't think of disagreeing that torn aorta is tops, but would disagree that TBI is low to nil. Particularly in the case of hard landings, it's been the brain injury a number of times that's killed or simply provided long-term disability.

Couple of known examples in my experience, combined with what I've read on dz.com

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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To give you an idea of what some of the difficulties are in producing a helmet the size and shape of the common skydivers helmet that is impact attenuating, take a look at a recent study for padding used in Military and pro football helmets and the issues they are attempting to overcome. It is quite dry but if you read just the executive summary you might get the jist. For those who want more info, it's further in the report and a table of contents is included at the front of the document. Enjoy.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53423453/PadReport-Final


PS: yes, it does address impacts and not just IED/explosive TBIs.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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When I started skydiving, everyone wore motorcycle helmets. Open face, not the wrap-around with face shields (I don't think those even existed). If you could afford a Bell, that is what you bought. If you were a cash starved college student, you bought one at Kmart or equivalent.

I still have mine somewhere, I think. Maybe I'll take it and my double-zipper jumpsuit out to the DZ this weekend.

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I wouldn't think of disagreeing that torn aorta is tops, but would disagree that TBI is low to nil. Particularly in the case of hard landings, it's been the brain injury a number of times that's killed or simply provided long-term disability.

Couple of known examples in my experience, combined with what I've read on dz.com

Wendy P.



You are probably right. The study I read was some years ago before people started dying under open canopies. This would produce slower impact speeds and glancing blow on mother earth.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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No, I am saying that I need a DOT or SNELL rating on the helmet.



Why? Last I checked the DOT (of the USA) and SNELL have no testing standards relating to skydiving.


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Ask yourself this: Does the current helmet that you use do anything at all to slow the deceleration of your head at impact? TBI is the result of the brain bouncing off the skull at deceleration. The only way to limit the damage done is to slow the deceleration forces of your skull.



Two of the three I use do have that feature.

One is a camera helmet purpose built for a task other than protection.

75% of my jumps lately are without a helmet. You'll probably wrongly assume thats foolish.


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The current helmets might help limit facial injuries or help limit skull fractures but they still do near nothing to slow the deceleration of your head and prevent your brain from bouncing around in your skull.

The current motorcycle type helmets may be a little bulky and many would limit your vision. I agree that these would induce their own set of problems.

So how about asking the market to design something that would actually work for skydiving and help protect us from TBI? We are much smarter now since the frap hat days. We should use some of this knowledge.



Have you any idea what the testing costs are to receive a SNELL rating even if their were standards for our sport?

Have you any idea how many skydiving helmets are sold annually?

And what helmets specifically have you looked at in order to come to the assumptions you have?
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Sorry that was a typo. I am NOT saying that a SNELL or DOT rating should be required. The mechanism of injury are not the same as motorcycle injuries. I am just saying that if you put a helmet on your head that it should actually do something more than look good. It should limit impact related Traumatic Brain Injury.

Also I am NOT saying that you should have to wear a helmet. That is your decision. What I am saying is that the helmets being marketed by skydivers to skydivers will not do what most people expect a helmet to do.

We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?

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Sorry that was a typo. I am NOT saying that a SNELL or DOT rating should be required. The mechanism of injury are not the same as motorcycle injuries. I am just saying that if you put a helmet on your head that it should actually do something more than look good. It should limit impact related Traumatic Brain Injury.

Also I am NOT saying that you should have to wear a helmet. That is your decision. What I am saying is that the helmets being marketed by skydivers to skydivers will not do what most people expect a helmet to do.

We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?



I expect my helmet to protect me against mild blunt force trauma, that's exactly what it does.
It dissipated the force and split at the impact zone. the helmet did exactly what i wanted it to do. Without the helmet I guarantee my head would have opened up and i would be a LOT worse of than i was.
You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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So how about asking the market to design something that would actually work for skydiving and help protect us from TBI? We are much smarter now since the frap hat days. We should use some of this knowledge.



There's your million dollar idea. Run with it! I'm sure you'll have no problem finding people willing to spend the ridiculous price you'll have to charge to be able to make a profit on them.

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http://www.teamwendy.com/

Great name :ph34r:

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?



I would. I think there are some on the market, and I jump them. I just think that the economics of a certification don't work. No one is going to pay $500 + for a skydiving helmet.

Examples of helmets that do what you like include:

ProTec
SkySystem's Benny
Cookie's 3DO Liners.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Sorry that was a typo. I am NOT saying that a SNELL or DOT rating should be required. The mechanism of injury are not the same as motorcycle injuries. I am just saying that if you put a helmet on your head that it should actually do something more than look good. It should limit impact related Traumatic Brain Injury.

Also I am NOT saying that you should have to wear a helmet. That is your decision. What I am saying is that the helmets being marketed by skydivers to skydivers will not do what most people expect a helmet to do.

We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?




I expect my helmet to hold on to my audible altimeter and keep the wind out of my eyes. If it keeps me from getting a bloody nose then that is a bonus. I jump a Factory Diver.


Where do you get your expectations from?? No where is anyone saying that skydiving helmets will protect you from serious injury.

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Cookie's 3DO Liners



I am VERY skeptical about D30 for use in helmets.

Look at it this way: the main use of that foam is in dirt bike / motorcycle protective gear/clothing. Yet, not 1 helmet for these sports uses 3d0. I find that extremely suspicious. My guess (and yes, it's purely a guess) is that if it was a good use of that material, these companies would be all over it. The only helmets that use D30 are for skydiving, and polo...

Looks like more of a marketing gimmick, that may actually be a poor technical decision.
Remster

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I expect my helmet to hold on to my audible altimeter and keep the wind out of my eyes. If it keeps me from getting a bloody nose then that is a bonus.


Where do you get your expectations from?? No where is anyone saying that skydiving helmets will protect you from serious injury.



A lid keeping you conscious during an aircraft failure on takeoff can give you a chance to get away from the possible BBQ that follows...is another scenario to consider.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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I have never seen any advertising saying that any of the skydiving helmets will protect you in any way at all.

If you were to remain conscious during the scenario you specified it would be sheer luck. Even with the best helmet available your chances of living through a plane crash are very slim. It's not a scenario that should really be considered when choosing a helmet.

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Probably the worst helmet I jumped with, was a steel pot in the army. They were VERY heavy and not padded much at all. I visited more than one friend in the hospital after they attempted a rear PLF on a windy day. Their trusty steel pot didn't help much at all. I'd bet the new kevlar helmets are a lot better.

I like my Z-1, but just a thin layer of plastic and a little foam is all there is between your noggin and something hard. It is a vast improvement over a frapp hat, but I wouldn't mind a little more protection.

I quit wearing my protec because I wanted to look cool. If I was smart I'd go back to that. Mad John was wearing a pro-tec last time I saw him. You don't survive thousands of jumps without being smart and tough.

I remember one jump when we hit some rough air on exit. One guy was wearing a frap hat. When he got on the ground, and took it off, the entire top of his head was red with blood. He'd hit his head on something hard during exit. I'm glad frap hats are no longer in style...

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>Does the current helmet that you use do anything at all to slow the
>deceleration of your head at impact?

Some of mine do, some don't. The Freezr II and Guner helmets that I have work fairly well for that. The camera helmet that I have (flattop pro) doesn't.

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You may be correct but that is just out of shear ignorance. We pay $1,500 dollars for an AAD to open your parachute if you lose consciousness. Wouldn't it be better to NOT lose consciousness in the first place? Some of you kids may not remember a time that AAD's were frowned upon and not allowed on experienced jumps. That was the case until someone came up with a better design, educated the public and made them available to the masses.

Airtec claims they have sold 150,000 units with 2,000 saves. I would guess that there is a market if someone could come up with a suitable solution.

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We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?



I would. I think there are some on the market, and I jump them. I just think that the economics of a certification don't work. No one is going to pay $500 + for a skydiving helmet.

Examples of helmets that do what you like include:

ProTec
SkySystem's Benny
Cookie's 3DO Liners.

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You may be correct but that is just out of shear ignorance. We pay $1,500 dollars for an AAD to open your parachute if you lose consciousness. Wouldn't it be better to NOT lose consciousness in the first place? Some of you kids may not remember a time that AAD's were frowned upon and not allowed on experienced jumps. That was the case until someone came up with a better design, educated the public and made them available to the masses.

Airtec claims they have sold 150,000 units with 2,000 saves. I would guess that there is a market if someone could come up with a suitable solution.

Quote

Quote

We accept AAD's, why not a genuine protective helmet?



I would. I think there are some on the market, and I jump them. I just think that the economics of a certification don't work. No one is going to pay $500 + for a skydiving helmet.

Examples of helmets that do what you like include:

ProTec
SkySystem's Benny
Cookie's 3DO Liners.




I dont have any numbers to back this up with but my gut feeling tells me the normal reason for AAD-fires is not losing consciousness.
But i could be wrong

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Cookie's 3DO Liners



I am VERY skeptical about D30 for use in helmets.

Look at it this way: the main use of that foam is in dirt bike / motorcycle protective gear/clothing. Yet, not 1 helmet for these sports uses 3d0. I find that extremely suspicious. My guess (and yes, it's purely a guess) is that if it was a good use of that material, these companies would be all over it. The only helmets that use D30 are for skydiving, and polo...

Looks like more of a marketing gimmick, that may actually be a poor technical decision.



Funny you mention that. Look at the report I linked above. One of the products they tested was d3o. Give it a read ;). I'll make it easy for you, page 53 but specifically the last sentence on pg 54.:)
"We believe the utility of this material as a helmet pad is questionable" sums it up quite well.

As to Wendy's pads. I have used them, they are really good pads but again, you put those pads into a skydiving helmet the price is going to go up and the helmet is going to have to get bigger and you end up with the big "uncool" looking bulbous helmet. (see pg 35, second to last paragraph)

I'll say it again, it's economics primarily with style coming in closely behind that is preventing skydiving helmet manufacturers from developing(certifying) and selling an impact attenuating helmet. It is cost prohibitive for the manufacturer and the consumer both.

If we were seeing head injuries like we are seeing canopy collisions in this sport I am sure people's attitudes would change about what was a "cool" helmet and what they are willing to pay for a helmet that protected them. Unfortunately, that's not the case and most people want a helmet for small bumps in the aircraft,an occasional foot to the head in freefall as well as a platform to hold cameras/Neptunes or against cold weather.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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