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jimmyh

Value (or not) of The List (World BASE Fatality List)

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See this poll:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2520077

BASE is currently unregulated. The difference with the NTSB and the USPA is these are the "official" organizations publishing airplane and skydiving accidents. Therefore they decided to not include names or photos for whatever reasons. USPA also doesn't include locations, so as to not offend any DZs. When reading a USPA report, I have to try to figure out what accident they are actually talking about so I can connect the details I've already heard about it here. The NTSB does list the location since a lot of accidents occur during takeoff and landing so the local conditions are usually more of a factor than in skydiving.

The BFL run by Nick and the forums are not official so they include whatever information people post, so long as the mods deem it acceptable.

From the BFL:
"NOTE:
- This List is not 100% accurate."

The BFL information is already on the internet so removing it will not make it disappear completely. There is no governing body for BASE that publishes incident results in a formal, anonymous manner like most of aviation. Pilot error is a major cause of fatalities in flying, so all of us should be learning all we can if we want to have the best chance of staying alive. Part of that is reading about and learning from the mistakes of others.

I can't imagine that maintaining the list is an easy job, and like moderating the forums I'm sure it can offend a lot of people. However, if it keeps people from making the same mistakes over and over like leaving a pull up cord or rubber band on a pilot chute, and saves one life, then IMHO it's worth it.

I'm sorry for the loss of Jimmy and all the others on the list. If you don't want specific details about the incident known to the whole world you have the option of keeping them from the public and having just a vague newspaper-like entry on the list.

In BASE we usually try to keep information about specific sites from the public. I feel that knowledge is a good thing to be shared among responsible BASE jumpers and it's up to everyone to use that information correctly.

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If you ever made a jump with a dead (before they died) jumper, tell someone else to drink.



now really...
how many people have jumped with a dead jumper AFTER they passed away?:P

does anybody care to admit it?:o
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I think the list should always be there, this is a great tool to understand what are you gettint into, I took me a long time to find out if I wanted to base or not, and the list helped me understand the facts about who and why base jumpers die.

I done my first skydive with Jimmy and I went to him for advise on base, and I got my first rig from him too, I'm happy to have started base and hope to continue for as long as I live.

if/when I die, (cuz we all will) I hope to be on the list and that my death will help other understand the meaning of the life we chose to live. It is not that we jump to die I jump to feel alive every day!!!

Jimmy Hall I will miss you lots bro.

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If you ever made a jump with a dead (before they died) jumper, tell someone else to drink.



now really...
how many people have jumped with a dead jumper AFTER they passed away?:P

does anybody care to admit it?:o



Ash dives? I would count that as jumping with someone after they died. Then again, I think that some of my friends that are now gone are with me on every jump...but that's just sappy stuff.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

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What I find what’s heart wrenching is when a friend finds out that someone they love has died – and the way they find out is through a public forum (a bit off the subject of the list, more a thought about the consideration of others before you post – make a posting ethics rule that you have to wait at least 48 hours before posting about someone who’s just died – in order to give the family and friends a chance to hear about it). I know, I know – the world is what it is – don’t look if you don’t want to know…. My heart starts to race when I see a thread topic like the one I saw yesterday…knowing how easily it could be someone else that I love…such a small, small world. It might be “another one” to someone, but it could be my someone’s someone. Did that make sense? I hate that the community is surrounded by death’s broken wings.

The list, the horrible list …after awhile, the death toll becomes something that seems quantified and blended across paragraphs of incidents. I’ve never gotten through the whole list to be honest. It’s reading someone’s name that is familiar – a friend of a friend, a lover of a friend, a son of a friend, a friend – and reading about someone that I’ve never known…it’s seeing their names or picture next to the words that are heavy and without breath…that stops me from reading further every time – maybe because the tears get in the way. Perhaps one day the list won’t have names. It seems like a more humanistic approach to what the list’s purpose has been portrayed to be by the king’s court, although the list holds different meaning for different people.
– if “you” really want a memorial for those that have died BASE jumping – perhaps create one that has only names – carve it deep in a cave somewhere in the mountains or etch it in limestone and buy a small plot of soil somewhere far away from the matrix for it to stay so loved ones can rest their backs against the cool stone and remember and feel close in the stillness of the moment, find an apex and pound in sticks with pc’s tied to the tops that the wind catches like flags or kites with names embroidered on the bridles, carve their names in a redwood that stands hundreds of feet over the forest in a canopy of trees...

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Sucks for Jimmy Hall's friends and loved ones...never met him but sounds like a stand up guy. To those that know him...I'm deeply sorry for your loss...

As a member of the Anexx club...
Nick...if you quit the list...I would be HONERED to take it over man. I'm totally stoked that I had my years in BASE and will eventually be on that list - just like we ALL will be. I haven't picked out my picture yet though...

I used the list as an instructional tool for many of my students...and they never objected or thought it was a bad idea to read the list - it's an excellent edu tool and when me and my students would be driving to a site or hanging around...I would pull out some printed copies and we would talk about how or why each death happened - SO WE WOULD NOT REPEAT IT!!! After we would read the list...I would whip out my death videos - explaining the context, etc. Eventually I became known as the "DEATH MONGER" - which I held with pride...

See folks, I don't want to lose friends, and this is a great tool to STOP that from happening. If you are afraid of the list, don't like the list, etc...you should not BASE jump...and you should probably vote for bush...because you are acting weak and you got your blinders on.

If you don't like the list...don't read it! I think it's the best collection of memories of those that died - for edu and to pay them respect. IMHO, there are too many BASErs that are afraid of dying, afraid of the list, or don't want to talk about death - but hey folks...death is part of life! Embrace death...it's coming.
Losing friends sucks I know...but the list should stay!!!

BSBD!
JJ

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I have had very mixed emotions about the list. I have read it from beginning to end. I visit it on occasion. I always pause at #103, take a deep breath and scroll on down to #104. I start to cry and I want to scream at Nick "he is more than a number on a list! He is my husband! #104 is Joe Lathrop, the love of my life!Wonderful Father to 3 children! The kindest, funniest, sexiest, thoughtful, most remarkable, beautiful man that ever walked the earth!#104 is where my life stands still. Where my future ended. It is the shattered remains of all my dreams, my hopes, my happiness, my heart, my world, my everything. NOT a number. And I cry and yell at the world for awhile.

Then I dry my tears, and take a step back. I think about "why" the list is there. Joe, knew about the list, and certainly never wanted to be on it. But, if one person reads his story, and learns from it, than it is quite possible, his story may have kept someone off the list. That is what he would have wanted.

As a future BASE jumper, the list is very sobering. I believe it should be read by anyone considering BASE.

The only suggestion I could add if it were to be changed. Because, everyone feels so different, and it is so personal. The public or media should not be a concern, they don't have to get it, or approve. Maybe if a spouse or close family or friends have strong feelings about their loved one on the list, a photo and or name could be witheld out of respect for them. There may be BASE jumpers themselves who have expressed they are opposed to the list. I think the wishes of the people it is so personal to should be considered.

As much as it pains me to see my husband there, I think you do a good job, Nick. And I'm sorry the list keeps you busy.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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It appears that the one common thought about the BFL is that it serves some higher purpose in the form of education.


It's not that aspect of the list that I find abhorrent.

these words are at the top of the page...
"Published for its Educational, Historical, and Memorial Value . . . "

It's the subjectivity of the keeper of the page in his depiction of people who he never even knew that I find disrespectful and counterproductive to BASE jumping in general. How is it his ethical role to write anythiing memorialistic about these people? And what do the the dot dot dots stand for?

Obviously very few of you agree with me...



Jimmy and Clair. I rarely get mad at anyone. Both of you are completely out of line here, as both of you have been several times.

-Chris
BASE 460
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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...the list...

When I used to fly, suprisingly I was a pilot at one time, I used to read a lot of NTSB accident reports...

I figured if I could learn from those mistakes, maybe, just maybe, I wouldn't make the same ones myself...

Then a few friends started showing up in the reports..... dieing in really stupid preventable airplane crashes...

It upsets me that they are known/remembered as NTSB XXX report, and not the person they were making perhaps just a one time error in judgement.

However, If one person reads the report of where they went so wrong and learns from it, it is not all for naught.... But I wish they could have just a glimpse of the person that made that mistake...

To me, the BASE jumping fatality list does both. It personifies the accident, and provides a lesson...

I think it is valuable and I thank Nick for doing a difficult job.

Beth, I am so sorry about Joe. I think about it often...


_justin

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Wait, we're out of line? Completely even?

I've never stood in your line once, not even for a second, so I've been completly out of it from the beginning.

And this coming from a guy who has Hunter S. Thompson forn Avatar....

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Nick,
I truly appreciate the time you took with such a response.

It is the spirit in which you keep that early brotherhood flame alive which I respect in you.

However, when I said I don't know you, I meant I wouldn't think for a moment I know you well enough to say anything worth reading that would stand for ever as a testiment to your life or death, and more importantly you don't know me either. One phone call about a rig, and a couple of years of vicarious interaction through the sport amount to very little in my book.

And be careful when passing this torch of the BFL on to the next generation. It seems like there are a number of people who would jump at the opportunity to pick up where you leave off. "Me. Me. Me. I'll do it Nick, I'll do it." Yeah, like I want that guy writing about me, my friends, or family n the event of a fatality.

I'm done talking about the list now, I won't ever die because I'm immortal anyway, so it's a moot point for me.

It does seem that I touched a nerve though. It almost seems to me like I committed a huge feux paus by questioning Nick and THE LIST. I didn't know they were sacred or off limits.

I didn't think that a group of people who pride themselves on urinating on the graves of their "brothers" would hold anything sacred.


Oh well live and learn, if not you get to share a number with those on the list, yipee.

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quote FROM luv2fly:

"..and you should probably vote for bush...because you are acting weak and you got your blinders on. "
------------------------------------------------------


DUDE!! NICE 2 SEE WE'D HAVE SUCH A NON-PARTISAN, UN-BIASED, OPEN MINDED PERSON IN CHARGE OF "THE LIST".

GEE I DIDN'T KNOW POLITIC'S AND BASE WERE SO CLOSELY RELATED?? pleeze keep your political opinions out of here it has no relevance to the subject. except to show your OBsessive hatred for someone you disagree with OUTSIDE OF BASE!!!

AS FAR I KNOW WE'VE HAD DEMOCRAT'S AND REPUBLICAN'S IN OFFICE AND NEITHER HAVE DONE A THING FOR BASE ON THE NPS POLICIES.



THIS IS BASE!---! NOT A POLITICAL FORUM!!!!!!

I PERSONALY DON'T BELIEVE IN EITHER PARTY AND REFUSE TO VOTE ANYMORE.-- BECAUSE OF GUY'S LIKE TED KENNEDY, GEORGE BUSH JR., AND OF COURSE AL GORE. ----ALL, ALL SPOILED F$$KIN' RICH KIDS.-- AND ALL TAKE MONEY FROM THE SAME PEOPLE (lobbiests) FOR VOTEs.

pleeze don't do the list. if your gonna be like this. we don't need YELLOW JOURNALISM ON THE LIST.

i know nick's politics and i've never heard him lash into the side he hate's. he keeps it to him self from what i've witnessed.

yeah, yeah, i know CLINTON AND NIXON grew up poor! BUT THEY STILL..............

AND OF COURSE IF YOU MEANT THE "OTHER" BUSH (VAGINA) i apoligize. --- but then i'd be really confused and still wouldn't think you should be in charge of "THE LIST"

later and sorry 4 the ANGER!!!

NPS SUX ASS

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I don't even know the guy who writes the "list", but please whoever you are



Appears that you actually DO know the guy who does the list...

What were your motivations for this thread? Was it really an issue with the list...or sorry, an issue with the fodder for your new drinking game? Or was it a personal issue with Nick (whoever he is??? oh wait we've already established that you were lieing and know exactly who he is) and you used your supposed displeasure as a vehicle to stir up shit online?

Did you attempt to email him with your views/opinions directly? Or did it feel "better" to go public with your beef?

Of course, you bring your intimate relationships and there issues to the public's eyes through this forum, so the fact that you would do the same with issues regarding a fellow jumper is not surprising in the least...it should actually be expected.

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Wouldn't it be better if the list was distributed internally, like the carnage tape?


NO
that way you´ll have the same group having that as an exclusive thing that people has to beg for to get.

Dont get me wrong but im the only jumper in my region,serval jack asses from the local dz has borthered me years after years to teach them to BASE,It took me 2 years to get the carnege tape and then was told it wasnt updated..
Im using that vid to scare people in case they really go close and really want start jumping...

So far no one started BASEjumping after they saw that vid.. I think it has saved atleast 1-2 people as they did rethink if they should start..

Personaly i see the list as "The BASE-graveyard",thats why i gave Nick shit the other day.. I think the site need its respect and it deafently has its place out there..

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We don't think "youtubing" the carnage tape is good for BASE, do we?;)


not at all,but as i see the carnage vid its a closed group of people having it,and it more apper like a thing you need to beg to see(AS A JUMPER) than its a lesson vid or reminder to how close death is..

I do however agree that not all people should have acsses to that vid,but i find it weired when a jumper whith a # or ref as experienced jumper cant get it..

loosing the list to the same group would be bad

well thats only my oppinion..

I think its good that both the vid and the list is out there,i however think that the list is more value as its known info.And its a place were we can go look at our freinds from the past..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

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Hey don't take things so seriously. See, I got you worked up. ;););) BASE jumpers always take everything hook line and sinker. ha ha ha.

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Wait, we're out of line? Completely even?

I've never stood in your line once, not even for a second, so I've been completly out of it from the beginning.

And this coming from a guy who has Hunter S. Thompson forn Avatar....


Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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Ellipsis: This punctuation mark is also called a suspension point, points of ellipsis, periods of ellipsis, or colloquially, dot-dot-dot.
Quote


I believe it was Herb Caen who popularized the dot-dot-dot, he called his writing style "Three dot journalism."
~J

"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"

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When we piss on the graves of our fallen friends who died jumping, it IS meant as an honor. The list is no different. As a pretty old timer you should see that.
I've seen a lot of it and they deserve to be recognized not only as a sterile lesson about the cause of death, but as a person that was part of a very unique and special brother/sisterhood. Keep the names Nick and keep throwing a few personals in there if you get them.
Rick H
Rick Harrison

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Jimmy,

The list as prepared and hosted by Nick is merely a list. It doesn't judge or comment on the possible reasons other than to quote most accurate reports.

I quit BASE jumping a few years ago after the birth of my daughter. This was in no small way as a result of reading and analysing the list.

Some of you may recall the very detailed analysis I carried out, splitting the list into various skill levels, causes, objects, etc.

What became very obvious to me (although I always knew it to some extent) was the level of black death that is inherent in BASE jumping, regardless of object, experience level, etc. It was a level which I was comfortable with as a non father but I was totally uncomfortable with as a father.

I would very possibly have come to this conclusion anyway but the list made my decision much easier.

While I was BASE jumping, the same analysis was an invaluable tool in reminding me that the jumps I felt more comfortable with weren't necessarily the safer jumps (I utterly hated antennae but loved cliffs).

Without the list being so publicly available how are newcomers to aquaint themselves with the grim history of the sport and thereby make informed choices about how to progress.

The fact that many other high risk sports don't have this list is a condemnation of their head in the sand attitude to the risk, not a condemnation of BASE jumpers for being so aware of the possibility of death.

I say a huge thank you to NDG and also huge condolences to those who know someone on the list.

The removal of the list from the public domain serves no purpose other than to make it harder for newcomers (who want to) to weigh up the pros and cons of what, at the end of the day, is a very risky sport.

Now back to my boring family life ;-) which I love by the way.

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Jimmy's thoughts on the BFL may not be popular, but he is not alone. The list does have educational value, so why not make it more educational and list some statistics (XX people died filming on their back, XX died from slider up cliff strikes, etc.). Removal of all numbers (the current "tally") would add value as well because the media won't cite it as much and jumpers won't simply be remembered as #1XX on the list.

The BFL should be educational as well as a way to honor our fallen brothers. But we must minimize the chances of it being repeatedly used against our sport on TV and in newspapers.

My thoughts on the list from March 2005
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

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Hello, for me the list is a huge value ammount of information to use in safety way and a I think also Nick take it on a very respectfull manner.
Please Nick keep the list and your way to go..

If you dont like it, just dont go to the site.
I dont like millions of websites and stay there anyway...??

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