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Jeb's and Luigi's wingsuit flight under the Christ Statue in Rio

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However, BASE jumping is a self-regulating activity, and thus the BASE jumpers do not have to explain anything to anyone.



how does A lead to B... I disagree. A BASE jumper in theory is self regulating, but still answers to many.
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

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BASE jumping is a self regulating activity...



As such it is incumbent on each of us to consider how our actions will effect other jumpers.

I think what Han Solo is trying to say is that he feels that the way the press is dealing with this close call is likely to have a negative impact on other jumpers, by encouraging other people to try similar things in an effort to "be cool."

In fairness, I don't know how much control Jeb and Luigi have over the press coverage, and what is being said by whom.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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As such it is incumbent on each of us to consider how our actions will effect other jumpers.



I have read this before but to what extent does it actually come into play?

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I think what Han Solo is trying to say is that he feels that the way the press is dealing with this close call is likely to have a negative impact on other jumpers, by encouraging other people to try similar things in an effort to "be cool."



I know what Han Solo is saying and I agree.

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"We all make mistakes. We all make judgment calls that shouldn't have been made. And we learn. We also try to teach others from our mistakes, so the same ones don't have to be repeated over an over." Han Solo



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"It would be interesting if the BASE jumpers would explain what they determined were the risks, how they managed the risks, and the rewards." Butters



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In fairness, I don't know how much control Jeb and Luigi have over the press coverage, and what is being said by whom.



Did they consider their control over the press coverage and how it will effect other jumpers?
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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As such it is incumbent on each of us to consider how our actions will effect other jumpers.



I have read this before but to what extent does it actually come into play?



To the extent that each person chooses. You make your decisions, for yourself, based on what you want, and what you think. The extent to which you are concerned about your actions affecting others is entirely up to you.



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Did they consider their control over the press coverage and how it will effect other jumpers?



I don't know. You could ask them, if you want.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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>>than from NickDG about the BASE jumpers and the jump.
Okay, watch me climb out on this limb . . .

I haven't said anything in this thread, because it's not BASE jumping, but since you dragged me in.;)

I believe we are going to see this type of "proximity skydiving" explode in popularity. I think this for a couple of reasons. One is I'd bet every skydiver who flies a wing suit is looking at this and thinking, "Gee, that's pretty cool and something I could do." Maybe not to the extent Jeb's doing it, but in a more general way. And any DZ close to the right geographical features could offer proximity flights.

If you go along with that idea it brings up some real interesting coming attractions. Proximity flying is the missing link, the last piece of the puzzle, for skydiving with a wing suit. It's why flying a wing suit passed clouds or in flocks is more fun than just zipping along by yourself.

Proximity flying, it can be said, started on the BASE side of the house. What did all early BASE jumpers say when asked what the main difference was between BASE and skydiving? They said it was "flying close to the object," and in those days they meant having a building or tower whipping by close behind them. The next step, and probably the first actual proximity flying was done under canopy at places like Half Dome in Yosemite. In the late 1980s jumpers were doing canopy "touch and goes" on rock outcroppings there on the way to the LZ. Patrick de Gayardon was doing proximity flying in the mountains with a wing suit in the early 90s but he was too far ahead of his time.

Now here's where it's going to get interesting. How long can it be before some skydiver puts two and two together. BASE jumping, in its almost 30 year history, has blown major holes in a forever held skydiving tenant. You must initiate deployment at 2000-feet. Sooner or later some wing suit skydiver is going to show up on a U.S. DZ with a TSO'd German BASE rig and ask why not? A hapless USPA will only be able to fall back on saying, "because we said so that's why." And it would be the beginning of a major revolt and the first big sea change on the DZ since playing hacky sack went away.

In the broader sense wing suit terminal at 500-feet (and lower) is proximity flying too. There's even a silver lining to it. Its possible bringing back low-aspect ratio canopies to the DZ would put a dent in the low turn death machines in use now. Yeah, okay I hear you. Sure, there would be a steep learning curve for skydivers and lives would be lost. But skydivers would get the hang of it sooner or later just like BASE jumpers did. And when you figure in big open DZs and no hard object right behind them, it's probably safer to open low at the DZ than it is on most BASE jumps.

The next step in the revolt is skydivers finally realizing they need a reserve because they have a reserve. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but we learned long ago simple is more reliable and it's a well proven concept. Is it possible we could actually make the case that because the FAA mandates "two parachutes" the resulting Rube Goldberg rig is a reason so many people are killed?

It's a funny thing about the course of our lives, the serendipity of winding up somewhere entirely different from where you thought you were heading. There was plenty of fixed object jumping before Carl Boenish came along and popularized the sport of BASE. It's why we call him the father of BASE and not the inventor of fixed object jumping. In the same way, I can see Jeb becoming the "father" of "proxy-flight."

But, hey Jeb, you just need to come up with a better name for it . . . ;)

NickD :)BASE 194

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an idea with an unexpected consequeces is also known as generative idea.

proximity flying is a great new exciting sport and i haven't felt this way since i saw my first base jump on tv (from angel falls) which inspired me to make my first base jump from a 600 foot cliff back in 1992.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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I believe we are going to see this type of "proximity skydiving" explode in popularity.



I like, I like alot ...I'm just a beginner now but this is the stuff that interests and motivates me.

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Sure, there would be a steep learning curve for skydivers and lives would be lost. But skydivers would get the hang of it sooner or later.



Hopefully sooner than later ... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2781829;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;#2787516 [:/]
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Now here's where it's going to get interesting. How long can it be before some skydiver puts two and two together. BASE jumping, in its almost 30 year history, has blown major holes in a forever held skydiving tenant. You must initiate deployment at 2000-feet. Sooner or later some wing suit skydiver is going to show up on a U.S. DZ with a TSO'd German BASE rig and ask why not? A hapless USPA will only be able to fall back on saying, "because we said so that's why." And it would be the beginning of a major revolt and the first big sea change on the DZ since playing hacky sack went away.




Actually, with the right terrain you can fly well under 2000' above the terrain, but then make it back above 2000' agl for deployment.

And that's really going to start people scratching their heads. Why would it be legal to be under 2000' in freefall?

I think the real thing that will make a sea change is the fact that skydivers can now "gain" altitude (relative to the ground), by simply flying to places where the ground is "lower."

I know at least one US DZ that is located adjacent to a mountain high enough that you could proximity swoop the slopes, then fly off and deploy at USPA approved altitudes. I can't even say for sure it hasn't already been done theree.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Dang, I guess i am still too conservative, I guess the new age term for my type of jumping would be "Anti proxy". I try to fly and open as far away from the object, planet and problems as possible all at the same time. I am somewhat succesful as I am making the LZ at ITW with an extra 150m under canopy with my new tracking suit and technique. I really like flying to the point where everything is farthest away.
Take care,
space

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Everything I do and everything I have done over the last 4 years has been heading to one thing, the landing. We have just made monster breakthroughs both in bringing costs down and in getting additional funding :) Every barrier that has been standing in my way is being crushed. The landing is coming :) All you have to do is sit back and watch. Because it will be here very soon...

Jeb Corliss

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It would be interesting if you would explain what you two determined were the risks, how you two managed the risks, and what you two determined were the rewards on this jump. The reason I ask is that this was a higher profile jump and higher profile jumps effect the whole community. Given the religious status of the statute I was also wondering if it played any role in the reward (if this is to personal I apologize).

PS: Good luck on your landing ... :)

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

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Han-Solo,

You seem very quick to say they failed?
Where is your problem?
Is it Jeb, Luigi & the publicity?
or is it the jump and the way 'YOU SEE IT' went?

You refer to the other ‘Jeb flaming thread’, it just makes you sound like your problem is jealousy??

I say let them decide if they succeeded or not
.
Yes every jump has some thing we can learn from, but from looking at the video.

My take is:

They jumped, one or more of the flew under the arm & they both lived.

Sound successful to me.

I know from climbing if we climb, we retch the top and we bring every one home we had a successful trip.

At least they are out there doing what they want, doing it their way
Isn’t that what BASE is all about

(and no I don’t care if they got out of a helicopter, or weather it was actually a BASE jump or not, so what)

All sounds a little too much like BASE politics to me.

It scares me that we have so many sheep even in BASE!

Greeny

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I think what Han Solo is trying to say is that he feels that the way the press is dealing with this close call is likely to have a negative impact on other jumpers, by encouraging other people to try similar things in an effort to "be cool."



Spot on. But it's not only the press. It's probably even more how the community (in this case that would be the "proxy-comunity"B|) responds to this stuff.

Example: if you're a snowboarder doing a 1260-rodeo-stalefish-to-fakie and don't stick it, is that "cool"? Even if the sponsors get their airshots, I doubt you will be on the cover of snowboarders magazine.

My reference was not to a "Jeb flaming thread" (maybe if you'd take a look at it you'd notice). It was a thread starting out as "look-at-this-it-is-so-cool" until a certain mister on holiday pointed out that maybe it wasn't cool at all since it appeared to lack the element of control. It had nothing to do with Jeb at all. And that is another part of my point. If we flame "up-and-comers" for showing off before they got it nailed, we have to have the same standards for the "gods". Actually it is ten times as important, since they are the ones in the limelight. (but of course i'm jealous, who isn't;))

Anyway. this is not about flaming anyone. It's about defining what we as a community appreciate when it comes to people flashing their "look at me" videos. It's about what flies and what doesn't. And to me it definitely doesn't fly when it relies on luck. But when it does fly, I apreciate it a lot. For instance I have enormous respect for the achievements of Jeb and Luigi and the stuff they have done. But that doesn't mean I will let it pass when I feel it shouldn't.

The sheep scare me too. But I guess to me the sheep are the ones that approve of uncontrolled stunts, just because they are performed by "gods".

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So what if it was 100% sure that he "skimmed" one of the people beneath the statue?

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Sorry if I jumped to conclusions over your link
I read your post, but didn’t see the link.

But that is where my apology stops……………………

I don't worship them as GODS as you put it

but I do approve of people taking opportunities when they are offered
Sometimes we are fully prepared and can pull it off with ease
Sometimes we are not but are given a choice jump it now or you will never jump it
At this point we have to make a decision, go or no go!
If we waited until we were always fully prepared we would never step off the edge

I also see a big difference between Jeb and Luigi’s jumps and the shit on U-Tube

I don’t like BASE posts on U-Tube but then I don’t like any posts on U-Tube
Its all a little too much look at me for my liking.

But, Jeb and Luigi are sponsored by Go fast
They are paid to advertise a drink
The footage they produce creates the publicity that achieves the media attention Go fast want.

Just like the Red Bull guys do

To do that they are given assets and access we can only dream of being able to afford

If someone had offered me a place on the load I would have jumped at it
Would I have cared if I was the best man for the job? No!
Would I have cared if I was good enough in YOUR opinion? No!

It is always very easy to stand on the side lines and pick fault with the guy who steps up to the plate to be tested.

With reference to the post you linked to:

People were Proximity flying as you call it way before sub-terminal was released
They were doing it before Rob miss judged the ledge in Norway

When the guy in the videos goes in you will earn the right to stand over his grave and say I told you so, but until then he has the right to do things his way. Just as you have the right to jump things your way.

Non skydivers don’t understand why skydivers jump
Skydivers don’t understand why BASE jumpers jump BASE
Some BASE jumpers seem to have a problem understanding why other are happy to push the limits that bit further.

One thing I do like about Jeb is he doen't give a fuck what we all think

Greeny

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greeny,
It looks to me that you attacking Hans w something he never said or write.
I disagree w many things here, especially w this :''One thing I do like about Jeb is he doen't give a fuck what we all think''

He is way to smart boy to be as you think he is. He care a lot about what some people saying, and believe me that what Hans wrote here was well received by Jeb.

Regarding Luigi ( I do not know him personally ) I can only say that he for sure know that he did a mistake. He is aware that he was so close to die that he will think twice before he make next similar jump.
They both know what was wrong / good and both knows what to improve.

Hans was saying that in general flyers need to be aware what they touching when they even think to play w terrain or proximity flying.

Believe me Hans knows what he saying.
Such type of flying need full understanding of all elements related to WS . Also, requires many BASE jumps w nice terrain to play with.

PS Rob's death is not in any relation w proximity flying..
Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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But, Jeb and Luigi are sponsored by...



Two thoughts:

1) Being sponsored by someone, or doing things for money, makes them no better or worse, from the standpoint of safety or ethics, than anything else. It makes no difference to me if they were sponsored by Allah himself, or if they ponied up the cash out of their own pockets. The standards to judge the jump (and the publicity, and the jumpers, etc) by are the same in either case.

2) If memory serves, Han-Solo is also a sponsored wingsuit flyer, so perhaps he has a certain amount of insight into those sorts of mechanics and politics that is a bit more in depth than others.




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People were Proximity flying as you call it way before sub-terminal was released...



Some of the footage on Superterminal was several years old before it was put on that DVD.



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When the guy in the videos goes in you will earn the right to stand over his grave and say I told you so, but until then he has the right to do things his way. Just as you have the right to jump things your way.



You also have a right to state your opinions before then. Some might say that you have an obligation to do so, if stating them might help him not go in, or help others not to do so.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Robi,

My attack on Han solo isn't ment to be personal
I don't claim to know him or his ability

My problem is as much as anything with all the general politics that is curently in BASE.

but please explain one thing

[PS Rob's death is not in any relation w proximity flying..]

Greeny

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there is no politics in Hans observation Greeny!
People like to play like super rebels and BASE jumpers - out and free from law. Hey those days are over.
Even Douggs ended up on court!!! :)All what is hans sawing is : think people think what and how to do it in order to avoid death. That is the message.

Do we think about the same Rob?!

Robert Pecnik
[email protected]
www.phoenix-fly.com

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Guys,

Too much gets miss interprited both ways here. I am down and digging. If we talked face to face i'm sure we would all have less problem with each other.

I am out of here:

Greeny

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I am out of here:


sometimes it felt like you and Han were not quite discussing the same thing. you did not place the same emphasis on the same key points. it seems to commonly lead to mis-understandings...

but you both made some interesting points.

I for one think that is an excellent use of this forum.

thank you for giving me something to think about!
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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I have noticed all these post say Luigi and Jeb :) I just wanted to clarify I did exactly what I was trying to do and I repeated it 4 times. I made no mistakes and new exactly what I was doing.

As for Luigi, this project could not have happened and would not have happened had it not been for him. The amount of work he put into this project goes beyond comprehension. I have never seen a person work harder for something in my life. He trained his ass off for months before this project getting ready and he did an amazing job. I have nothing but the highest level of respect for this man.

As for his close call, they happen. They happen to anyone who pushes their limits to the absolute edge. They happen to every base jumper at one point or another in their jumping. For some of us that is what this is all about. Pushing the limits of what people believe possible. Luigi knows what happened and has learned from it.

As Dwaine use to say, you start out in life with two jars. A luck jar and an experience jar. When ever you do something dangerous you take one piece out of your luck jar and put it in your experience jar. Eventually you will run out of luck and all you will have to keep you alive is your experience. Luigi has just used a big chunk of his luck jar but he has gained a huge piece of experience that I am sure he will never forget.

I am proud of him, imagine watching yourself go in and then tell me if you would not freeze up. He kept flying where others would have just kissed their ass goodbye...

Jeb

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They happen to anyone who pushes their limits to the absolute edge.



I know a couple of accomplished BASE wingsuit pilots, from my experience of watching them they never fly to 100% of their ability when pushing the limits. Apparently it is the 10% that they hold back that prevents them from smearing themself across an object or into the ground at line-stretch. Sure you can push the limits of your own envelope gradually and build on your experience but it would appear that this guy is putting himself in over his head. What was his BASE wingsuit experience before this stunt? That motorcycle jump?

I know he is a friend of yours and a co-sponsored athlete and all but maybe you should explain to him that the longer you live the longer you get to play.

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I am proud of him, imagine watching yourself go in and then tell me if you would not freeze up. He kept flying where others would have just kissed their ass goodbye...

Jeb



I totally agree with you Jeb on everything except this last statement. I think that looking for the best option to avoig oing in is a trait most BASE jumpers have though all should have.
HISPA 72 ----- "Muff Brother" 3733

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sometimes it felt like you and Han were not quite discussing the same thing. you did not place the same emphasis on the same key points. it seems to commonly lead to misunderstandings...

but you both made some interesting points.



then it's worth it:)
I will try to clarify.

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I don't worship them as GODS as you put it


Many people are amazed and inspired by what they do. I am one of them. Maybe you're not. Did you notice the " "?


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but I do approve of people taking opportunities when they are offered
Sometimes we are fully prepared and can pull it off with ease
Sometimes we are not but are given a choice jump it now or you will never jump it
At this point we have to make a decision, go or no go!
If we waited until we were always fully prepared we would never step off the edge


Agree


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I also see a big difference between Jeb and Luigi’s jumps and the shit on U-Tube
I don’t like BASE posts on U-Tube but then I don’t like any posts on U-Tube
It’s all a little too much look at me for my liking.


I don't really see the big difference. The reasons may vary, but the result are the same. Of course different media has different audiences, so that must be taken into consideration. Something might be OK at a friend’s party but not on national TV. But most of the time we're somewhere in between


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But, Jeb and Luigi are sponsored by Go fast
They are paid to advertise a drink
The footage they produce creates the publicity that achieves the media attention Go fast want.


Exactly, and that puts the pressure and responsibility on them to fight the corporate/commercial demand. Probably very difficult, but in my opinion it goes with the job. In this case this is the only area where I argue they should have acted differently.


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If someone had offered me a place on the load I would have jumped at it
Would I have cared if I was the best man for the job? No!
Would I have cared if I was good enough in YOUR opinion? No!


I totally agree. Actually I think all practicing basejumpers feel this way and in a way every jump is in part this statement.


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People were Proximity flying as you call it (I didn't invent this expresion. In Trondheim we call it snittflyging (red.anm.)) way before sub-terminal was released
They were doing it before Rob miss judged the ledge in Norway


I know. I'm not claiming any authority here at all. In a way I feel more like throwing rocks in a greenhouse (sorry, couldn't help it:$), as I can imagine some people might have been inspired by it. Actually there was some discussion on whether or not it was "responsible" to release. The conclusion was that as long it showed controlled jumps that we were not embarrassed by, it was OK. Some of the stuff in the extras section does not fit under that phrase. But there's the carnage-value...;)


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When the guy in the videos goes in you will earn the right to stand over his grave and say I told you so, but until then he has the right to do things his way. Just as you have the right to jump things your way.


No I won't. Unless he's being whacked by some guy that's sick of seeing hairy jump on the internet. Apparently I'm "telling" him something else than you think I am.


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[PS Rob's death is not in any relation w proximity flying..]


Some may argue that "proximity-flying" starts when full flight is achieved. Rob hit the ground because the rockdrop was too low and the talus wasn't steep enough.


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If memory serves, Han-Solo is also a sponsored wingsuit flyer, so perhaps he has a certain amount of insight into those sorts of mechanics and politics that is a bit more in depth than others.


Not exactly true. Having done five ws jumps in suit I didn't pay for doesn't give me any insight. Maybe if I had I would understand the pressure to release "carnage footage" on the internet better.


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I am out of here:
Greeny


Sorry to hear, cause I think this is kind of valuable.[:/]


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I have noticed all these post say Luigi and Jeb :) I just wanted to clarify I did exactly what I was trying to do and I repeated it 4 times. I made no mistakes and new exactly what I was doing.


Didn't have the heart to drag him down all aloneB|. Some really nice flying there by the way.
My point is how it is presented, and I perceive you as being a part of that.


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He kept flying where others would have just kissed their ass goodbye...


Maybe (I think many would have acted pretty much the way he did, as there is not much else you can do), but I don't think it deserves a round of applause. And the idea that he made it due to his "calm, clear-headed and fast response" is a bit out there.

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