Confused? .. Why?

[n_pertuset 0]

fair enough tom. point made.

i'm with calvin too. no bashing, just curious.

have fun. don't die.

Nathan

[Twoply 0]

I love confused young men.

[n_pertuset 0]

cincy sucks huh? i qoute...

"This is a bit out of my realm of comfortability"
-M.G.
haha, remember that on the twin?

last time you were here was my first weekend jumping.
ever plan on coming back??

Nathan

[Twoply 0]

Yes I do and if we go SL off anything, I'll leave my PC on. I can read all about people having done SL's without them but I still haven't been presented with any ideas that would make jump without one.

But then again, I met my woman in an emergency room after she slipped on her own sweat on a strip club's stage and fractured her elbow. Bless her heart, she has no dancing skill, but she can sew a sweater quicker than a cat can catch it's tail and is a hell of a good cook. Fat as she is, she still the one.

[greeny 0]

PC off Static Line Jumps

Maybe this thread was started because I have talked to Hydoguy recently about removing my PC for curtain jumps and have all SL’ed so jumped recently without one.

Firstly let me start by saying my PC (usually my 48zp) goes on about 90% of my SL jumps. It goes on every jump unless I believe it will cause me more problems then it will solves.

I fully understand all the arguments for leaving a PC on and trashing PC’s (I also have an old, repaired 48 kept for SL only) is acceptable to me if it is not going to course me an additional problem.

I have had an Electrical Tape SL break early. I got a 3sec canopy ride from 240ft. I had a 46ZP PC on and was very thankful for it. I changed to break cord after that jump.

I have also very recently had an unexplained low opening on a 173ft E SL. I again had a large PC (48zp) on. The friend at the top said it looked from the top like it went right, but to me it felt like I freefell it and I only got a 4sec canopy ride (less than when I freefall). Again maybe my PC saved my life. I was using 2 pieces of break cord.

I do not do many none PC SL’s but the jumps where I have removed my PC are where the need for forward speed / flight performance / glide ratio of my canopy out ways the risk of jumping with no PC. You all know from skydiving the difference a collapsible PC makes to your glide. I am working on that for BASE but do not have a reliable system I like yet.

Examples of PC off SL jumps:

150ft B, a construction site with nasty stuff under the exit point and a spiky fence that NEEDS it be cleared. I didn’t believe I could clear the fence with a large PC on and not clearing it was unacceptable. I jumped it with no PC, I flared and lifted my feet to clear the fence. Fun Jump!

Small E, with a long rocky hillside to out fly. I didn’t believe I would clear the whole talus with a PC on. I have now out flown it with no PC, so next time I will SL it with my 36 f111 and if that works I will jump it with my next size up and so on. I would like my PC on but not out flying it would put you into big rocks and power wires.

I am paranoid when I jump SL with no PC, but in certain circumstances it makes a jump do-able where refusing to jump without a PC would mean not jumping. The good thing about BASE is it is a free sport and we all jump as we wish, to the level we wish. You might not all like it and I RECOMMEND IT TO NO-ONE but these jumps were very worth it to me.

My SL set up with and with out my PC is the same and more than likely the same as most of the rest of you.

I use the break cord APEX BASE sells (80lbs). I’m sure you can get it from other places but it is real convenient for me to get it from them.

I always tie in with 2 loops.

If I have the option I tie in tight to 2 separate loops on my bridle
(see APEX SUPERBOWL set up)

If not I tie in one tight and one loose.

I adjust my bridle length depending on my jump.

I use ‘carry with you SL’s on illegal jumps, unless I feel it would snag

I tie in as short as possible to lower the snatch forces on my break cord

I undo my pin and riser covers

I prime my pins again to lower the snatch forces
(I want my container to open and my pack job to lift with minimum force possible, thereby giving the break cord the best chance to stay intact)

On legal jumps or places I will be returning to the exit point I set up a stay behind anchor and retrieve it later.

I am paranoid about mine and my buddies bridle routing.
(Arms, feet, snag points catching your bridle or PC are all bad)
(sometimes the best way is to get the last jumper to lightly hold the bridles / PCs, of the other jumpers clear, extra safety is never a bad thing)

I push off just enough to clear the object to minimise the pendulum effect
A light push off here is better than dropping straight down as a canopy always drives forward a little. Adjust this to the jump, under hung / large ledges might mean a running exit is needed (scary on a SL jump be very very paranoid about bridle routing)

You are static lining so chances are you are lower than normal, when you release your brakes let them up slowly to minimise the canopy dive. If you practice this you will see you will fly further from the object on all jumps if you let them up slow. If it is low 130f and below consider a shallow break setting and not releasing the brakes. Land on rear risers. If it is real low 100ft or below adopt the PLF position (you did learn how? Right) as you step off the exit and leave the brakes and risers alone. At this height nothing you do will help just let the canopy do its thing.

Lowest by me so far: 90ft (SL attachment point height) onto concrete.
A Fox 243, ZP, V-Tec, Multi

It landed hard!

I have also jumped 98ft onto grass on my MOJO
(I don’t know if this was a lucky jump or repeatable, I was still using electrical tape and thought it was higher)

120ft onto concrete was done by 3 of use a few weeks back
2 vented canopies and on not, all were acceptable rear riser landings but the vented canopies defiantly had better pressurisation on landing.

[mysty429 0]

Gald to see you chimed in!

Not sure what exactly happened on that low 'E' jump, but I would go as far to say the PC did help out. As for the 120' over concrete, we all PLF'd but could of stood up (Two vented canopies fully pressurized, unvented had closed end cells). Double break cord setups tied very short to the pins, carabiner clipped to Toyota. Great jump!

-Taylor
"Can't plan fantastic!!!!!"

[TVPB 0]

DW!!!!!!

I remember the umpteenth time I met DW.

TB:"Bridge there, you haven't jumped it. No gear. Bad luck. You miss out".
DW: "You've got some crap in your car, I know it".
TB: "All I've got is a shitty water rig with no spare pilot chute".
DW: "Just make sure you hang onto that bridle - I trust you ".

As he steps off I call out, "shit, I've dropped it".

He appreciated my sense of humour.

I've BA another person off a building.

Don't know about you, but I would not trust ANYBODY without a P/C as a minimum.

Consequence: nil deployment.
Reward: I can't think of any. Maybe you won't damage a pilot chute or you are testing the trust and/or skill level of your mate?????

But I'm just a flacid appendage I guess....

p.s. BA is a bridle assist.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[greeny 0]

I agree completely, If I can have a friend at the top and can't SL it I would D-Bag it. I see no reason to PCA with no PC. That would just put a huge amount of necessary pressure / responsibility on the PCA'ing friend. Imagine how he / she would feel if they dropped it an you went in.

SL'ing with no PC is all my fault, I have control

PCA'ing with no PC is still all your own fault (you jumped) but your friend has full control.

Scary


Greeny

[TVPB 0]

quote]what do you think my definition of 'possible' is?

Since when did this forum become www.BASEJumping.psychologist.com???

I was asking your definition of live? Quadraplegic? Full functionality?

When you say possible, under what circumstances (conditions, configurations, etc)?

r.e. the vents, they either help or not. Your thoughts? Why?

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

quote]what do you think my definition of 'possible' is?

Since when did this forum become www.BASEJumping.psychologist.com???

I was asking your definition of live? Quadraplegic? Full functionality?

When you say possible, under what circumstances (conditions, configurations, etc)?

r.e. the vents, they either help or not. Your thoughts? Why?

live meaning your not dead. and by possible i would say that a jumper with 200^' f111 vented canopy(pin rig you hosers) and 46"pc packed slider off with no primary stow, nose wraped around plackjob, no tailgate or other reefing, jumper exit and fall in feet down position with thrown up PC would walk away 50% of the time. thats just a guess.

vents add a little weight to parachute (extraction-line stretch time), no matter what size. but if they are there, the canopy is not just pressurised faster, (even with vents, it would not be flying at 100' FF) it is a larger (if slightly) projected area, as in the first stage of open slider down canopy, its essentialy a round. so i dont know about vents/no vents.

-SPACE-

[greeny 0]

Calvin,

Give me vents, ZP top skin, 48zp unvented PC
Let me preinflate my PC on a 4ft bridle
and I'm in, you will survive

but I don't want to just survive I want to walk away

so I am going to be chicken and ask for an extra 20ft

120ft should be repeatable!

but i still need to work down to it 160ft is my lowest FF and I only have 3 jumps off it so far.

Greeny

[Calvin19 0]

my lowest is 180'

dagger 222, 42" unvented, warlock (pin) rig, plenty of time. well, if 4 seconds is plenty of time.

------------4' BRIDAL!!!!!?????????????????

dude, no, 9'. 9.

even in feet down position, your wake will effect a PC.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

4' BRIDAL!!!!!?????????????????

dude, no, 9'. 9.

Why do you say that? What is the purpose of the 9' bridle? How does it fulfill this purpose on a go and throw?

Quote

even in feet down position, your wake will effect a PC.

How long is the burble at time zero (which is when you pitch at those kind of altitudes)?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

you sleep as much as me obviously.

a burble starts if an object is moving. period. i agree it will be much much less at zero airspeed, but the risk is not worth 5' in my opinion.

the length of the burble? i dont know.

the burble is zero at time zero, but that does not matter. from zero time on the jump to line stretch on the canopy is at least a second. the PC wont stay at exit altitude.

i would guess that a 4' bridal and 9' bridal would produce very different pull forces in the first 30' of a jump. no matter the jumper postion.

this along with the no PC SL scare me.

i never thought of myself as a conservative jumper when it comes to rigging. (packing in 15 min? my good one might be 20mn) but hey, gear risk for a jump like that does not make me wet.

[TomAiello 25]

In my opinion;

The real danger on an ultra low freefall (I'm thinking sub 200' freefall, here) is pilot chute hesitation. Hesitations, by their nature, are somewhat random.

Predictability ought to be the main goal of an ultra low freefall system.

Decreasing the length of the bridle, and preinflating the PC removes the unpredictable element of pilot chute hesitation. Done properly, you ought to be able to leave the exit point with a PC that is already inflated, at bridle stretch, and pulling.

I'm not saying this is a good technique for everyone, or for standard use. But Greeny is interested in pushing the limits, and he has specific gear custom tailored to these type of jumps. His canopy is unique, his techniques are good, and he's tailored the entire system (and his procedures) for ultra low deployments. He's doing relatively large amounts of repeated practice jumps in a relatively short time, and dialing in the system.

Given his circumstances? I think he can find useful techniques and gear modifications that simply don't make sense for any other application, but that will work for him.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[wwarped 0]

Quote

His canopy is unique, his techniques are good, and he's tailored the entire system (and his procedures) for ultra low deployments. He's doing relatively large amounts of repeated practice jumps in a relatively short time, and dialing in the system.

Given his circumstances? I think he can find useful techniques and gear modifications that simply don't make sense for any other application, but that will work for him.

Calvin speaks of theory.
greeny sounds like he is building experience.

that is the point of science experiments; collect data to confirm or refute theory.

greeny: good luck!
Calvin: sew up a 4 ft bridle. attach a pilot chute. secure it to your back. preinflate the pilot chute. get pulled on a skateboard, jump into a pool, etc. and video the results!

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Calvin19 0]

already planned the tests man. i was thinking more doing my rope jumps (i have a computer-linked load cell), so i can measure pull force and stuff.

and totaly theory.

greeny man, if your really doing that stuff that low, thats sweet. i really want to see footy of that and get your results. i dont want to do it, it just fascinates me.

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

In my opinion;

The real danger on an ultra low freefall (I'm thinking sub 200' freefall, here) is pilot chute hesitation. Hesitations, by their nature, are somewhat random.

i kinda dissagree.

im weird and i dont really believe that PC hesitations are random. i think they are only caused by the jumpers wake(burble)

a 4' bridal, (in my opinion) would make these 'random' hesitaions a lot more frequent.

we should be testing this stuff on a rope jump...

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

Quote

In my opinion;

The real danger on an ultra low freefall (I'm thinking sub 200' freefall, here) is pilot chute hesitation. Hesitations, by their nature, are somewhat random.

i kinda dissagree.

im weird and i dont really believe that PC hesitations are random. i think they are only caused by the jumpers wake(burble)

Negative. I've tested PC's with a 9' bridle and a very small weight at the end, which ought to have virtually zero burble, and still seen occasional hesitations. I'm very convinced that there is more than that going on in a PC hesitation.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[greeny 0]

Busy today will try to post video ect tonight / tomorow

Greeny

[Calvin19 0]

hesitation as in the PC does not inflate right away?

or it does not have ful drag right away but is fully inflated.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

hesitation as in the PC does not inflate right away?

or it does not have ful drag right away but is fully inflated.

It does not inflate immediately.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

ahh... well then.

i withdraw my disagreement.

[Faber 0]

Quote

The real danger on an ultra low freefall (I'm thinking sub 200' freefall, here) is pilot chute hesitation. Hesitations, by their nature, are somewhat random.

thats why 4ft bridals,special pc tecniqes and exit possisions can be made to make it more safe

Quote

Decreasing the length of the bridle, and preinflating the PC removes the unpredictable element of pilot chute hesitation. Done properly, you ought to be able to leave the exit point with a PC that is already inflated, at bridle stretch, and pulling.

you dont even need to shorten your bridel to do that but in the low envioment you rather want the 5 extra feet below you than on top of you..

greeny has dream gear for jumping in the low envioment,most others wouldnt fine tune their gear like that,but then again they wouldnt go that low..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Calvin19 0]

i still think that 4' bridals are a bad idea.

the burble comes into effect. it has to.

i will test it at potato this summer. rope huck style.