0
MagicGuy

Do BASE Jumpers Want Their Sport to Grow?

Recommended Posts

I used to think it was about egos as well. and I think some of it is. but mostly it's (in my opinion) about protecting the limited # of objects from people who have no respect for them, or for the other people that are jumping them.all they can think is "I'm gonne get mine".
a few bad experiences and pretty soon you don't want to show people around any more....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote



I've had significant success helping my students get involved with local crews who were unwilling to guide them before their FJC. I'm also proud to say that I've convinced several prospective students to reconsider enrolling in an FJC, and helped them meet local jumpers who could guide their skydiving progressions to better prepare them for BASE before they started.



Bingo. It rests on the locals. if you have some dumbass show up with his hair on fire and a titty dancer on his arm he wants to impress...scare him away and steal his woman.

Same goes for the chicka out to smoke pole for a PCA. (let her...just bail out her window when she's asleep...and before you ever PCA her)

Weed out those who have put in the skydives, pay attention, and ask lucid questions. They will be less likely to screw the community.

Now, about the titty dancer...
- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Some BASE jumpers are selfish, they want their objects all to themselves....



Some may be, but I bet the majority want only to protect what they already have...

Quote


If you don't have a mentor (hard to find these days)...


Explain?
Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


I'm determined to get myself into this sport, regardless of what I have to do. I just think that BASE guys should take into account each individual person's goals and attitude and act accordingly.



that is the attitude that has lead to several entries on "The List." (RIP)

goals? I really do NOT care what your goals are. they are meaningless. a complete suicidal maniac might have a GOAL to BASE jump, so? I should respect that?

attitude? now that MAY deserve respect. if you insist on jumping no matter what, that is your attitude. being ignored might be how the locals "act accordingly."

I stood 100 yards from a fatality. I've carried broken bodies out. I have comforted those left behind. and I have seen some ugly stuff.

it is NOT a world in which to rush.
it is NOT a world to enter by force.

and NO I do not see a compelling reason to grow. sure, we will add more jumpers. we will also lose jumpers (hopefully via retirement :)
I'm still waiting for someone to explain why growth is good. no one has offered any arguments or disagreements with Tom's comments. I even directly asked SLAMBO to offer a reason in an earlier thread. no one has stepped forward with anything but he rosiest of forecasts, as if BASE accidents never occurred.

oh, and the sport of fencing is NOT booming, but it still endures. why fret about BASE "dying?"
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

oh, and the sport of fencing is NOT booming, but it still endures. why fret about BASE "dying?"



Aaaand that one's out of the park. Nice.
- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If you don't have a mentor (hard to find these days)



No, it's not. It just takes a hell of alot more time cutivating a relationship with one than people are willing to invest these days.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

what belongs in the curriculum and what doesn't,



what doesnt belong in a curriculum? i would think that everything belongs. I would say that everything possible to describe or teach should be taught.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If that is the case, why are you not taking them to a local object and teaching them yourself?



Because the Perrine bridge (legal, huge landing area, water) does have some advantages that do get people up to speed quicker. I have a decent first-time freefall slider down bridge within a four hour radius, but even there we'll be able to crank out two jumps a day at the most. At the Perrine I can crank four jumps a day over a three day weekend and get somebody up to speed quicker.

Say all you want about patience and so forth, but at the end of the day there are some advantages to compressing the learning of basic skills in a short period of time.

More importantly, to me, is the level of commitment it shows if somebody is willing to do an FJC. And I'm not even talking about the Perrine advantages listed above or getting additional teaching from somebody other than your mentor will be at home. I'm talking about having to travel a number of miles, pay some money, and demonstrate that you're taking this seriously. Maybe that is shallow, but somebody that is willing to admit to me that FJC plus traditional mentoring is more valuable than traditional mentoring alone, that's worth something to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I remember a similar thread from early 2005. It was actually about “My biggest teaching mistake”.

I will quote Tom:

“1) Taking on a student who wasn't ready, because I was afraid they'd go chuck themself off something if I didn't step in. I think, in retrospect, I ought to have made them wait, and brought them in to ground crew, or whatever, in the meantime, which also would have given me some latitude to get them practicing the right skills while skydiving.

2) Not allowing enough time for a FJC. I'm starting to wonder if they don't need to be a week long, all the time.

3) Not laying out a good enough progression for what people ought to do after they've finished their initial FJC.”

My reply then:

“Hi Tom,

I do agree but like to add a personal opinion and some thoughts if you don't mind.

Personally I have one student per year ... sometimes longer. The concept of FJC is, in my personal opinion, a concept not actually in the best interest of the student.

It is a concept that enables "mass production" and with mass production you have to make a standard course that does not allow to many custom changes to be cost effective. The goal with mass production is usually to make money from it ... not to share a lifestyle or mentor someone in to a very high risk activity.

I am not against FJC's ... as I see it FJC's are a symptom, now days there are so many out there that are looking to get in so the only way to accommodate that demand are mass production ... the only thing I sometimes wonder about are ... that demand, did we create it with making BASE easy to get in to like FJC's ... or is FJC's just the logical answer to the increase of people that like to become basejumpers.

... and if we created that demand ... did we create a monster?

PerFlare
www.swedishbaseteam.se”

- - - - -

My reply to your question. No.

I do think we created a monster and that monster is now out of control. We are growing fast and allot of times when I see newbie’s they are acting like “skydiver teens” … some of them actually have the skill and most of them have far more talent then I ever have, but they do not realize the true consequence of what we actually are doing. That realization develops over time.

But then again what do I know about anything, one thing I do know is that there are one FJC that I would like to attend, because I believe I would learn allot of things attending it, it is the week long course that Tom A is running.

PerFlare
www.swedishbaseteam.se

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nice post!
The bums will never win Lebowski, the bums will never win!
Enfin j'ai trouvé:
Bieeeen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone.



I think that's pretty unfair to Tom, and a mischaracterization of what's going on. Because the money is not his primary motivation, he can be much more selective as to who he takes on, and make sure that when the novice is released back into his natural habitat he's really prepared for it. That's being responsible.
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone.



I think that's pretty unfair to Tom, and a mischaracterization of what's going on. Because the money is not his primary motivation, he can be much more selective as to who he takes on, and make sure that when the novice is released back into his natural habitat he's really prepared for it. That's being responsible.



ok i agree, it was just an inconsiderate one liner.

there is a lot of good fjcs out there, and while i disagree with them on some levels, they are vital for other reasons.

fjc's make the sport look like anyone can do it. its like skydiving again, pay the money, and you get an A liscense. scary similar.

anyone can get into skydiving, no matter who they are. if they have money and are slightly motivated, they can skydive.

-SPACE-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

anyone can get into skydiving, no matter who they are. if they have money and are slightly motivated, they can skydive.



Yeah, but as I keep getting told, "skydiving is easy". It's so commercialized that you can default on thinking at every stage. In BASE, it's simply not possible to pay someone money to pack for you, to take care of your equipment, to rent you gear for every jump, to hold your hand every time. The barrier to entry is much higher, and not everyone is going to pass that barrier. It's not just a matter of having the time and money, but of having the brains. [That's certainly one of the draws for me. It's a huge challenge that I know most people can't meet.]
Looking for newbie rig, all components...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
skydiving isnt just easy, its close to idiotproof. (close)

and i agree that base is very different in almost all aspects, but the simple fast that FJCs exist, make it feel like i described, to some younger skydivers out there as well as the general public.

sometimes at the dropzone, watching people ask stuff like (after they are told what tracking is) "if i am tracking really hard after my reserve fails, cant i just tuck and roll when i get close to the ground?"

and im not kidding about that. this person has broken their back twice now on landing, 100some jumps and 2 stand up landings. perfectly healthy person as well.

-SPACE-

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

skydiving isnt just easy, its close to idiotproof. (close)



i love these comments. how exactly is skydiving easy? which discipline are you world champion level in?

flailing around in the air is easy, just like jumping at TF. doing the best of either world is a challenge that takes a lifetime to master.

open your mind BASE is not as hard as you think to walk into and be competent at. keeping yourself and your attitude in check is what is the hard part.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Personally, I like to see two things in prospective jumpers:

1. A desire to put as much or more effort into their preparation as I did and do.

2. A compatibility on a social and personality level.

Take the cross-section of those two characteristics, and the number of people that I would be happy about entering the sport shrinks rapidly.

My two cents...



who are you to think everyone should put a specific amount of energy into anything and why do you think you should have to get along with someone or they shouldn't enter BASE. you try to push your own values, moral, and ethics onto people to much.

everyone does things for their own reasons and has to accept the outcome. stop thinking there is only one way to do BASE, your way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It's a huge challenge that I know most people can't meet.



There you go, a perfect reason supporting FJC's.

I have seen several people do a FJC and decide it's not for them. Good decision! Without that experience they may have ended up in trouble before they had that realization.

While I was one of the skydivers who thought BASE was crazy until I was challenged about my understanding of the sport, I meet people all the time, skydivers and non-skydivers, that can't wait to try it with absolutely no knowledge other than it looks like a cool thing to do. (Most of the time it is.) These are the people a FJC would help the most. It would allow them to experience all it takes to participate.

I took Tom's course, when it was free, and he did an excellent job of exposing the students to the work necessary. The first day we walked from the park to the landing area and climbed out. If that doesn't have you realize this isn't skydiving... Next we packed for hours. Having taken a packing course prior to arriving in Twin, I wasn't too pleased when Tom told me to open it up and pack it for a third time, but that's part of the learning. Climbing up and jumping out of that tree 8-10 times was actually scarier than jumping off the bridge the first time, and that's another reason he includes that.

Jumping off the bridge after all that was kind of a let down. My brother called me right after I landed and asked how it was. My response was it wasn't as exhilirating as I thought it would be.

Now take a step back and let's look at a guy who shows up to TF's with his friends for a first jump. His friends are generally more interested in their jumps than his and also tend to think of the bridge as a safe, easy object. They prepare him as much as they think is necessary. This includes helping him through his first pack job and having him practice his exit form several times. They tell him they will PCA him which means all he has to do is concentrate on his form. On the walk out they show him the wind indicator and the preferred landing area. They also point out the ditch and boulder field he should stay away from. He climbs over the rail, a pretty fear filled event by itself, and is now standing 485' above a hard surface, shitting his pants. Knees shaking he counts, 3-2-1-CYA. As he leaves the object head-low he tries to remember WTF he was supposed to do. The canopy slams open and he now has 20-25 seconds to get this big ass canopy to where he intended to land. HELL YES he's juiced when he gets to the ground!

I realize not everyone brings their friend up and puts them through that ordeal, but it does happen. Pretty hardcore experience and that's off a safe, easy bridge. It's been done off not so easy object also...

I think a descent FJC gives the student the most benefit and exposure. The risks are decreased as much as possible and the instructor monitors the students progress and makes informed decisions as to the students ability to progress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone.



I think that's pretty unfair to Tom, and a mischaracterization of what's going on. Because the money is not his primary motivation, he can be much more selective as to who he takes on, and make sure that when the novice is released back into his natural habitat he's really prepared for it. That's being responsible.




Catch and Release?? I'm sure that's good for business...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

"if i am tracking really hard after my reserve fails, cant i just tuck and roll when i get close to the ground?"



Well, can you?

Now to be serious. Why are BASE jumpers against any authority telling them what they can and can't do but not against telling others what they can and can't do? If someone told you that you could not BASE jump before you started would have BASE jumped anyways? (From other questions I have asked I believe most BASE jumpers will answer yes.)
"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

skydiving isnt just easy, its close to idiotproof. (close)

In the context you mean it, yes, it is. The act of skydiving is simple. Students prove that to me all the time. Becoming proficient and highly skilled takes a lot of effort.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
i think he means jumpers who want him to mentor them. and in that case he has every right to decide who he wants to let in the door and who to shut out. I think MyTwoCents has more sense than to just slam the door on anyone, but more politely say, no thanks, not right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

anyone can get into skydiving, no matter who they are. if they have money and are slightly motivated, they can skydive.



Yeah, but as I keep getting told, "skydiving is easy". It's so commercialized that you can default on thinking at every stage. In BASE, it's simply not possible to pay someone money to pack for you, to take care of your equipment, to rent you gear for every jump, to hold your hand every time. The barrier to entry is much higher, and not everyone is going to pass that barrier. It's not just a matter of having the time and money, but of having the brains. [That's certainly one of the draws for me. It's a huge challenge that I know most people can't meet.]



Cornishe packed me up for 2 shots of Patron, a taco, and some teabag...

Total bargain.
- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

open your mind BASE is not as hard as you think to walk into and be competent at. keeping yourself and your attitude in check is what is the hard part.

you try to push your own values, moral, and ethics onto people too much.

everyone does things for their own reasons and has to accept the outcome. stop thinking there is only one way to do BASE, your way.



Well said, thanks for those posts. Those are important points that are some of the first to be forgotten these days, from my firsthand experience.
"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

skydiving isnt just easy, its close to idiotproof. (close)



i love these comments. how exactly is skydiving easy? which discipline are you world champion level in?

flailing around in the air is easy, just like jumping at TF. doing the best of either world is a challenge that takes a lifetime to master.

open your mind BASE is not as hard as you think to walk into and be competent at. keeping yourself and your attitude in check is what is the hard part.


note the (close)

did i say i was or specify anything about world record ass grabbing(RW) championship? any CRW titles i mentioned?

skydiveing, as difined, is the act of jumping out of an airplane and living.

and ude, i SUCK at skydiving. (i have tunnel time, and i still havent graduated to anything but assisted back flying, its amazing how much i suck at falling straight down) but im still alive. and so is just about everyone else who has done it.

i NEVER said base was harder. i just am saying that it is easier to die doing.

I think my attitude is in check. is yours?

dudes,

I have seen kids BASE jump and stand up their landings with zero flying, skydiving, paragliding, anything experience. i would say that a single handheld base jump at potato is safer than skydiving. SINGLE

and i have seen 2000 jump masters frap in and spend a year in the hospital on a skydive.

its all relative.

IM NOT SAYING THAT ANYONE CAN GO AND BUILD A 25 WAY HEAD DOWN STAR!
im saying that anyone can go take AFF level one and live.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

No.

And you'd think someone like me, who makes money teaching First Jump Courses, would be the most likely to think the other way.


What are the advantages to us if more people participate, or if there is more visibility?

The only ones I can see are:

1) More money goes into gear advancement with competition growing;

and, maybe,

2) More jumpers have more lobbying power to open and maintain access to legal sites.


Honestly, I think that number 2 is a pipe dream. I doubt that we will ever have sufficient numbers/money/lobby to really play that card with land managers.



What are the disadvantages?

1) More traffic on illegal sites means more heat.
2) More traffic on legal sites means more access issues, and more likelihood they'll get shut down.
3) More publicity means more people participating with less and less preparation. When every kid with an X-box wants to BASE jump, a fair number of them are going to find a way to do so. This reduces the average skill level in the sport, increases the number of jumps, increases the traffic on objects, and increases the number of incidents, all of which lead to problems with site access (legal or not).
4) More publicity increases your chances of getting busted on any particular run-in with law enforcement. Gone are the days of "wow, that's pretty cool, and I don't even know if there's a law about that anyway," and here are the days of "this city has an ordinance forbidding aerial delivery."


Honestly, I wish we had less people than we do now, and that people getting into the sport were proceeding with more caution.



I couldn't agree more and I am far from being one of those "experienced BASE jumpers". IMHO there are far too many people who rushed into BASE within the last few years. The people with little canopy control experience and poor gear knowledge should be told to spend more time at the DZs and rigging lofts and less time in BASE. Plus, while we know BASE is an order or magnitude more dangerous than skydiving, we shouldn't trivialize skydiving (as some do here ... not referring to Tom). Since when was any form of aviation ever considered safe?

Finally, BASE jumping means different things to different people. One size does not fit all.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0