MagicGuy 0 #1 April 12, 2007 I've been asking myself this question a lot lately, and the more I think about it, the more I realize that I think the answer to this question is NO. I'm curious to hear some of you experienced BASE guys opinions on this, yes or no, and why or why not. Not looking for any arguments, here. Just some different opinions on the topic. Thanks guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #2 April 12, 2007 No. And you'd think someone like me, who makes money teaching First Jump Courses, would be the most likely to think the other way. What are the advantages to us if more people participate, or if there is more visibility? The only ones I can see are: 1) More money goes into gear advancement with competition growing; and, maybe, 2) More jumpers have more lobbying power to open and maintain access to legal sites. Honestly, I think that number 2 is a pipe dream. I doubt that we will ever have sufficient numbers/money/lobby to really play that card with land managers. What are the disadvantages? 1) More traffic on illegal sites means more heat. 2) More traffic on legal sites means more access issues, and more likelihood they'll get shut down. 3) More publicity means more people participating with less and less preparation. When every kid with an X-box wants to BASE jump, a fair number of them are going to find a way to do so. This reduces the average skill level in the sport, increases the number of jumps, increases the traffic on objects, and increases the number of incidents, all of which lead to problems with site access (legal or not). 4) More publicity increases your chances of getting busted on any particular run-in with law enforcement. Gone are the days of "wow, that's pretty cool, and I don't even know if there's a law about that anyway," and here are the days of "this city has an ordinance forbidding aerial delivery." Honestly, I wish we had less people than we do now, and that people getting into the sport were proceeding with more caution.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #3 April 12, 2007 I want it to grow the way it did when I first started learning about it. Mentors, and putting in dues. Tagging along to ground crew with no intent of jumping. That means more than once. Reading the fatality reports, and understanding them. Learning something about gear, and knowing when you don't know enough. Learning ethics at a Denny's late night after GCing. Respecting those that were jumping the local objects before you. For the most part, BASE training courses are becoming the death of this sport. In short, no.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #4 April 12, 2007 tom - i really respect you but i think you are narrow minded with this post. things that don't grow, die. pure and simple. check history if you don't believe me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para_Frog 1 #5 April 12, 2007 Quotetom - i really respect you but i think you are narrow minded with this post. things that don't grow, die. pure and simple. check history if you don't believe me. That's bullshit. We're not talking about plants here. More people statistically increases the prevalence of dumbshits - and dumbshits get dead or burn objects - and that's bad for the sport. Having said that - BASE will grow. Just look at the BASE number graph. It's inevitable.- Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #6 April 13, 2007 Quotethings that don't grow, die. pure and simple. check history if you don't believe me. Things that grow out of control either kill themselves, or are killed by others, though. What advantages do you see to current jumpers from increasing the number of jumpers in the sport, the number of jumps done per year, or the exposure of the sport in the eye of the general public?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #7 April 13, 2007 With all due respect Tom, When I saw you last weekend and someone asked you how your FJCs were going, your answer was, "Business is great!" I'm glad that you are banking on teaching tons of people who pay to play. And manufacturer courses that last weekend taught 5 more students at TF, at $1200 a piece. When they get done with these courses with essentially non-local strangers, they are going to return and either tear things up as rogue loners, or have to fit into the local scene, after the fact. I just don't understand why skydivers who want to learn to jump don't just keep asking until they can't be ignored anymore. Bring a camera, offer to drive, make your mom bake the locals cookies. But it just seems that more and more people are making a "living" off teaching anyone willing to pay, regardless of what the consequences are to the locals, local objects, or the future overpopulation of BASE in general. If you want it bad enough, you can have it when you earn it. Otherwise, keep your money for a new vented canopy and grow with your locals. Learn from them before your BASEing, during, and continue with them. If everyone with $1200 and another $1000 for gear gets to jump and return home, we can only expect more fatalities and less open objects...Gravity Research Institute Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #8 April 13, 2007 I agree with all of Tom's points. The growing pains within BASE exist because the sport is so easy to practice, making it very easy to get over your head. Most extreme sports require not only skill, but much talent in order to even get into harms way, but with BASE most anyone can put on a rig and step over the edge, letting the odds, and not skill, determine the outcome. Still I see it pointless to be against growth of the sport, as that won't keep it from happening, and it may keep some future BASEer from enjoying it. And I might add deaths are a flimsy reason, it's not like humankind is in danger of extinction. Yes, let BASE grow and become a viable way to commute to work... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #9 April 13, 2007 Tom, I appreciate your reply to my post and I'd like to address a couple of points that you mention. I completely and totally understand all of the disadvantages that you mentioned in your post. More jumpers = more heat. Easier it is to get into the sport, easier it is for people with shitty skill to start jumping off of things. But on the other hand, look at it from another point of view. I can say that I started skydiving with BASE in mind from pre-jump 1. I wanted to BASE jump before I started skydiving. I've done ground crew and I've learned as much as I can about the gear by reading these forums and catching quick glimpses of friends' gear and whatnot. I've even seen a friend have a BASE malfunction and pound into the ground with some serious force. I've always expressed a genuine interest and now that I'm racking up more skydives and getting closer to being able to jump (according to BASE FJC guidelines) it seems like noone really wants to give me the time of day. While knowing that I can go travel to the Perrine and do a FJC and probably learn a whole lot and make some good supervised jumps, I believe that someone local who knows the ins and outs of the objects in the area, what the winds need to be like and the general stuff that needs to be known is important. If BASE jumpers don't want the sport to grow, how am I suppose to gain this valuable information? I'm determined to get myself into this sport, regardless of what I have to do. I just think that BASE guys should take into account each individual person's goals and attitude and act accordingly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chachi 0 #10 April 13, 2007 QuoteQuotethings that don't grow, die. pure and simple. check history if you don't believe me. Things that grow out of control either kill themselves, or are killed by others, though. What advantages do you see to current jumpers from increasing the number of jumpers in the sport, the number of jumps done per year, or the exposure of the sport in the eye of the general public? no one said grow out of control as if that would EVER happen in BASE. but the crew in BASE is so secretive, skeptical of everyone, and more. this is really why i don't think most want it to grow, their ego's. if it becomes mainstream then all the BASE jumpers now don't feel special. we think we are so hardcore when there are people out there doing far more dangerous and profitable things. in fact this sport could be the alternative to people that can't afford skydiving but instead it is ruled as a secret society almost. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #11 April 13, 2007 QuoteWhen I saw you last weekend and someone asked you how your FJCs were going, your answer was, "Business is great!" Two things: 1) I'm absolutely certain that's not what I said. In fact, I recall quite clearly saying "I'm teaching a lot, probably more than I want to." That's very different from your recollection, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. 2) I don't really see how the number of students I'm teaching is relevant to my views about the growth of the sport, except perhaps to emphasize that even though I am able to teach many people, I am not pleased with the overall rapid growth rate. QuoteI'm glad that you are banking on teaching tons of people who pay to play. And manufacturer courses that last weekend taught 5 more students at TF, at $1200 a piece. That's an incredibly cheap shot, and a poor attempt to paint me as solely teaching for the money. My first jump courses cost about two thirds of the figure you quote ($850, on average), and I teach a significant number of students at no charge. When was the last time that you spent several hundred dollars of your own money creating and distributing course materials, then spent a week of your time teaching a group of students who you aren't charging? The fact that I would prefer that the sport not grow, or at least grow slower, does not mean that I am not realistic about what is happening. Given the explosive rate of growth, I do as much as I can to help people enter the sport as safely as possible, with as much help and guidance as possible. Can you say the same?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brianfry713 0 #12 April 13, 2007 Some BASE jumpers are selfish, they want their objects all to themselves. Others enjoy sharing the experience with people they think are ready. I kept asking to go to a local object to GC, but wouldn't be allowed by the people I was asking until I had my own gear, took two FJCs, and made a few jumps at legal objects. If you don't have a mentor (hard to find these days) to give you detailed instruction, a FJC is much better than the 15 minute brief you might get the night you do your first BASE jump. You'll get much more respect from the locals after you get home and might actually get invited along and shown some objects when you get home, as long as you're not an asshole. Personally, I won't jump anything unless I have someone to show me the object and tell me about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #13 April 13, 2007 Quote Personally, I won't jump anything unless I have someone to show me the object and tell me about it. And that, my friend, is the $64,000 statement. I can do a FJC from all of the gear manufacturers and a 15 minute briefing from every BASE jumper out there, but if I don't have the inside info from someone who's familiar with the object, what's the point? I also agree with the statement made about 'feeling special'. When you don't BASE jump and people look up to you for it, you're special. When that's not the case anymore, the special feeling goes away. I think there are too many BASE jumpers out there that hate to see that special feeling go away.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #14 April 13, 2007 Here's what I would suggest (and what I would do, if I get to your point and I'm in your situation): Take the FJC. Or two. Come home, take some locals out for beer and tell them excitedly about what you just did and what you just learned. Ask for assistance with some local objects. And if they still give you the brush-off, move.Looking for newbie rig, all components... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MyTwoCents 0 #15 April 13, 2007 We're damned if we do, damned if we don't. No matter what we do, we can't win. Given the Perrine is here to stay for the foreseeable future, I think we're better off with structured courses like the one Tom is providing, than not having courses at all. Let's say there are ten people with a potential interest in BASE, but unable to find a mentor. Taking the Perrine as a given, here's what happens if FJCs didn't exist: Three of them have a desire but never jump. Four of them will join friends to the Perrine and learn there. Three of them will buy used BASE gear somehow and go at it alone. With courses, you'll get this: Two of them have a desire but will never jump. Two will join friends at the Perrine and learn there. One will go at it alone. Five will do a course at the Perrine. So even though the net result of doing FJCs is a more rapid growth of the sport (two instead of three people didn't jump), I also think that the overall result is better for the sport; we now have five people with at least somewhat of an understanding and only one going at it alone, compared to the three who would go at it alone otherwise. Again, we can't win, no matter what we do. It's all about minimizing damage. As for the ego part that Chachi brought up. I do think there is some truth in that. We do like to think of ourselves as particpating in an elite sport. I know I do... Personally, I like to see two things in prospective jumpers: 1. A desire to put as much or more effort into their preparation as I did and do. 2. A compatibility on a social and personality level. Take the cross-section of those two characteristics, and the number of people that I would be happy about entering the sport shrinks rapidly. My two cents... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #16 April 13, 2007 If you are experienced, and willing to show a returning FJC student your local objects when they get back, I assume you already decided that you are compatible with them, and decided that they have the right mindset in your opinion. If that is the case, why are you not taking them to a local object and teaching them yourself? I just got back from Twin, with someone I've been mentoring for the last year. There were 5 students in one FJC class, not Tom's, and they got 3 jumps from the course. Due to winds, one PCA, and two handhelds. The question I have is: Do these jumpers already have established contacts and commitments from jumpers back home, who will look over them for the next ~20 jumps, and show them the local objects? Or are they going to go home $850-1200 poorer, to a scene where they haven't talked to a single local BASE jumper, with knowledge only of slider-down, 1-2sec, 42"pc, span jumping, into a huge landing area? I agree that sometimes you can't win. I don't want to, can't, and won't take every skydiver in town that wants to get into BASE to the Perrine, and watch over them for their first ~20 jumps. I choose to jump with a very small group, and you won't get invites to our cool loads just because you want to. I will help everyone I can as much as I can, at the same time, but I have no answer for this problem that won't go away. I understand that if someone is refused teaching, they might just go off in the dark and figure it out themselves. Not good for anyone. But to flood the BASE world with FJC courses, somehow cheapens the demonstration of desire and determination to get into BASE. Guess those jumpers are always welcome at the Perrine...Gravity Research Institute Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SabreDave 0 #17 April 13, 2007 QuotePersonally, I like to see two things in prospective jumpers: 1. A desire to put as much or more effort into their preparation as I did and do. Quote THe only problem there is how fast that bar comes down. The persons looking at these parameters may have gotten into it themselves at a level that those that came before them would consider too low. It's all perspective I guess?!?! I don't get it, the whole rush into the sport, those that must have this now, running (with scissors) before walking. BASE will always be there, what's the rush everyone? I know I don't want it to get much busier around here and it's really not that busy............SabreDave Share this post Link to post Share on other sites garyharbird 0 #18 April 13, 2007 Corey You live in an area with very limited objects and most of them are very hot. You will find it very hard to get the locals to take you out, there are not many good sites for beginers. Just because u have a certain number of jumps it doesn't mean you are ready for base. Base is no picnic, people see the videos and think it is a piece of cake. But truth be known its dangerous and people die. The people you jump with have to trust you, and you have to trust them, because when things go wrong, they are going to be the people who will save your life. Even if you take a fjc, you prob not going to get anyone to take you out. It's just this area is very fragile right now. I know people have mentioned michelle jumping, but she a different case. She spent 18 months ground crewing, found a mentor and i have nothing to do with her jumping. she has great knowledge of the sport, and its ethics. Don't take this personally its just how it is right now. Gary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Calvin19 0 #19 April 13, 2007 we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #20 April 13, 2007 Hey Calvin, you can charge more, because some new jumpers will pay more to get into BASE quick and with minimal research and effort...Gravity Research Institute Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MagicGuy 0 #21 April 13, 2007 I could argue points about Michelle but it's not my business nor do I really care about arguing what she does or doesn't do. I'm happy that she is jumping. It seems to make her really happy and I'm happy for her. At least she'll actually talk to me about it Just kidding, mate. No hard feelings dude. I know the deal about the area and I totally respect that. But being involved with BASE and getting my feet wet doesn't necessarily have to involve me actually jumping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base570 1 #22 April 13, 2007 Are you kidding me??? You want to get into BASE? Why would you want to do something so asinine as that when you can LEVITATE?????? I would much rather be able to defy gravity than to be it's slave! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MagicGuy 0 #23 April 13, 2007 Well shit since I can levitate I guess there's no risk in me going in, right? More reason to jump!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 25 #24 April 13, 2007 QuoteI just got back from Twin, with someone I've been mentoring for the last year. There were 5 students in one FJC class, not Tom's, and they got 3 jumps from the course. Due to winds, one PCA, and two handhelds. The question I have is: Do these jumpers already have established contacts and commitments from jumpers back home, who will look over them for the next ~20 jumps, and show them the local objects? Or are they going to go home $850-1200 poorer, to a scene where they haven't talked to a single local BASE jumper, with knowledge only of slider-down, 1-2sec, 42"pc, span jumping, into a huge landing area? There is no doubt that there is much room for improvement in all FJC's. I don't think anyone has a perfect program, and there is definitely healthy debate about what belongs in the curriculum and what doesn't, and how much information a student can absorb and retain. That said, in my last two courses, the students have made between 15 and 20 jumps. Here are some of the jumps that I include in my course: PCA Handheld Stowed Slider up Static line (demonstration of 3 different methods, practice of at least one) There's also, of course, a fairly significant amount of theoretical material (object evaluation, deep brake setting, wind effects, ethics, etc), and I also try very hard to connect my students to jumpers who are local to them for when they return home. While I cannot guarantee that I can find good guidance for everyone when they return home, I can say that I do my best to help with that, and that I've had significant success helping my students get involved with local crews who were unwilling to guide them before their FJC. I'm also proud to say that I've convinced several prospective students to reconsider enrolling in an FJC, and helped them meet local jumpers who could guide their skydiving progressions to better prepare them for BASE before they started.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tornolf 0 #25 April 13, 2007 The only person I've jumped with who went through Tom's course was one of the most heads up and knowledgeable inexperienced jumpers I've met. I think he only had like 20 or 30 jumps when he hooked up with us, all from Perrine. This could very well be more a result of the person than the course though. And who I'm talking about, don't get a big head cause you're still not allowed to fuck up and die - it's against the rules.A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world. -TJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 0 Go To Topic Listing
garyharbird 0 #18 April 13, 2007 Corey You live in an area with very limited objects and most of them are very hot. You will find it very hard to get the locals to take you out, there are not many good sites for beginers. Just because u have a certain number of jumps it doesn't mean you are ready for base. Base is no picnic, people see the videos and think it is a piece of cake. But truth be known its dangerous and people die. The people you jump with have to trust you, and you have to trust them, because when things go wrong, they are going to be the people who will save your life. Even if you take a fjc, you prob not going to get anyone to take you out. It's just this area is very fragile right now. I know people have mentioned michelle jumping, but she a different case. She spent 18 months ground crewing, found a mentor and i have nothing to do with her jumping. she has great knowledge of the sport, and its ethics. Don't take this personally its just how it is right now. Gary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #19 April 13, 2007 we dont want it to grow, but if someone pays us 1000 $ for a FJC, we will teach anyone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #20 April 13, 2007 Hey Calvin, you can charge more, because some new jumpers will pay more to get into BASE quick and with minimal research and effort...Gravity Research Institute Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #21 April 13, 2007 I could argue points about Michelle but it's not my business nor do I really care about arguing what she does or doesn't do. I'm happy that she is jumping. It seems to make her really happy and I'm happy for her. At least she'll actually talk to me about it Just kidding, mate. No hard feelings dude. I know the deal about the area and I totally respect that. But being involved with BASE and getting my feet wet doesn't necessarily have to involve me actually jumping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base570 1 #22 April 13, 2007 Are you kidding me??? You want to get into BASE? Why would you want to do something so asinine as that when you can LEVITATE?????? I would much rather be able to defy gravity than to be it's slave! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #23 April 13, 2007 Well shit since I can levitate I guess there's no risk in me going in, right? More reason to jump!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #24 April 13, 2007 QuoteI just got back from Twin, with someone I've been mentoring for the last year. There were 5 students in one FJC class, not Tom's, and they got 3 jumps from the course. Due to winds, one PCA, and two handhelds. The question I have is: Do these jumpers already have established contacts and commitments from jumpers back home, who will look over them for the next ~20 jumps, and show them the local objects? Or are they going to go home $850-1200 poorer, to a scene where they haven't talked to a single local BASE jumper, with knowledge only of slider-down, 1-2sec, 42"pc, span jumping, into a huge landing area? There is no doubt that there is much room for improvement in all FJC's. I don't think anyone has a perfect program, and there is definitely healthy debate about what belongs in the curriculum and what doesn't, and how much information a student can absorb and retain. That said, in my last two courses, the students have made between 15 and 20 jumps. Here are some of the jumps that I include in my course: PCA Handheld Stowed Slider up Static line (demonstration of 3 different methods, practice of at least one) There's also, of course, a fairly significant amount of theoretical material (object evaluation, deep brake setting, wind effects, ethics, etc), and I also try very hard to connect my students to jumpers who are local to them for when they return home. While I cannot guarantee that I can find good guidance for everyone when they return home, I can say that I do my best to help with that, and that I've had significant success helping my students get involved with local crews who were unwilling to guide them before their FJC. I'm also proud to say that I've convinced several prospective students to reconsider enrolling in an FJC, and helped them meet local jumpers who could guide their skydiving progressions to better prepare them for BASE before they started.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tornolf 0 #25 April 13, 2007 The only person I've jumped with who went through Tom's course was one of the most heads up and knowledgeable inexperienced jumpers I've met. I think he only had like 20 or 30 jumps when he hooked up with us, all from Perrine. This could very well be more a result of the person than the course though. And who I'm talking about, don't get a big head cause you're still not allowed to fuck up and die - it's against the rules.A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world. -TJ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
