PackerBarry 0 #1 March 23, 2004 This weekend I was handed two rigs... guy had a dolphin and wanted to put his main, reserve, and slider into a gently used Vector 3 container that he had just bought at the gear store... didn't seem like a big deal, rigs were accepted by a staff rigger that I'm training under and he wanted me to do the nug work on it.... anyway, pull the AAD and am going to install it in the V3, guess what? there's already a cyres there... gear store manager forgot to pull the old one out in his haste to make the sale... quickly remedied that... took aad back to gear store to relieved clerk... then got around to installing the reserve... I say, gee, this looks like a really tight container...rigger trainer says, no problem it's a bit tight, I've packed that rig and it's snug but you can do it... without really looking, I say, no, it's really a tight container.... pull out the pack card (that the gear store left in the container instead of keeping with the reserve) rig had a PD 126 in it.... guy wants to put a tempo 170 in it... rigger says, hmmm that is going to be tight--- I say, how about we look it up... pull out the para gear... find out that the pack volume for the reserve is 395 cu in... the max on the container is 305... call RW this morning and ask them about it... guess what? it is out of manufacturers recommendations... call customer, he is pissed at me, I tell him to talk to gear store guy that sold it to him... guy says can't you just shove it in? you're the rigger, it's you job to make it fit... I say, sure, I could get it in, but not too sure about it coming back out.... he says, it'll be fine.... I say, get another rigger, the manufacturer says it's a no go and I'm not putting my ding dong on the chopping block because you want an itty bitty rig.... I tell him, get a smaller reserve or a bigger rig... he says that he doesn't want to WASTE the money on a new reserve.... I tell him have a nice day and work it all out with the gear store guy....when asked, the gear store guy says that he didn't think to ask about the reserve size because the skydiver who bought it should know better.... it seems sometimes that jumpers don't understand what really is going on in that reserve tray or what consequences there are to asking a rigger to do something outside of manufacturer specs... they just figure, he's a rigger, he knows magic, it'll all be okay--- this seems like common sense, but it occured to me that others might run into a situation like this and wanted to share Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #2 March 23, 2004 I understand that. A rig I packed up a few weeks ago had a reserve too big for the container. A staff rigger had been packing it for months on end. I told the customer it was the ONLY time I was packing it and if he brought it to me again, it needs a reserve that is fit for the container. He understood... but I just don't see how people can be ignorant to something that obvious, especially knowingly. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hazarrd 1 #3 March 23, 2004 QuoteI understand that. A rig I packed up a few weeks ago had a reserve too big for the container. A staff rigger had been packing it for months on end. I told the customer it was the ONLY time I was packing it and if he brought it to me again, it needs a reserve that is fit for the container. He understood... but I just don't see how people can be ignorant to something that obvious, especially knowingly. why would you pack it "just this one time" but not in the future? .-. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #4 March 23, 2004 yeah, if your gonna make a stand on something why the "next time" and not now? needed the money?? Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #5 March 23, 2004 It wasn't a money issue. I know that if he has to use his reserve, it will work. I knew if I said I did something of that sort (only once) I'd prob get flamed for it on here. It was a matter of "kid, you have 4 months to come up with the money for a new reserve. This is your grace period." I could go on about the situation and the reasons I did what I did, but they would sound like excuses in writing. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #6 March 23, 2004 I certainly don't want to raise any hackles with this comment...but did you actually try to pack the container with the Tempo 170 in it? I haven't packed more than a few hundred V3s, so I don't claim to know their sizing like the back of my hand, but I do know this: 1. ParaGear canopy sizing is hit-and-miss at best 2. PD canopies pack much, much bigger and Tempos pack much, much smaller than they "should" based off their published square footage. 3. Container mfgs. list their pack volumes lower than they actually are so they don't get people calling and complaining about how hard it is to pack such-and-such rig with such-and-such canopy, even though the book says it will fit. I've put plenty of Tempo 170s into containers that previously had PD 126Rs in them, and never had a problem. I'm not sure if I've ever done it on a V3 though. I'm only asking because sometimes it's a good exercise to pack stuff that is outside-the-box on paper, just to see what it does. Obviously you don't want to go so far as to force the container and cause it harm, but maybe at least try it and see? Now, you're the rigger, and I applaud you for standing up and telling the customer you thought the set-up was "no bueno". That's what you should do as a rigger...take control and make the choices as you see fit. But, IMO, you should never pass up the opportunity to try and pack something just because the book says the numbers don't jive. Books and Numbers (especially pack volumes) aren't the end-all-be-all of rigging, you've got to try stuff for yourself as well. Altitude, humidity, temperature, age, line type, etc. can greatly change the numbers... Just some thoughts. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PackerBarry 0 #7 March 23, 2004 excellent point on packing things "outside of the box" to improve your skills.... in this case, I looked at it and laid the other free bag over the rig... it extended 5 inches on either side.... I know that the V3 has a long ass bag and I probably could have gotten this thing in if I had really wanted to... as a matter of fact I know I could have... basically, there were four thoughts going through my head at this time... 1. people at my DZ and perhaps everywhere else in the world for all I know have been progressively stuffing more into less, now, I applaude them for having an adequate reserve, the rig must be appropriately sized... I was taught that a rigger is required to follow all manufacturers recommendations and due to the way the TSO process is written, breaking a manufacturer req is the same as breaking a FAR or exceeding/deviating from the specs outlined in the TSO, thus making said rig unairworthy... (think cypress battery, the reserve is in and to specs, but you can't close it due to the fact that airtec says you need a battery every 2 years even though everything else is within specs, you still can't close it and seal it)... just to be on the safe side, I called RW and asked them what to do and the manufacturer specifically stated that the reserve volume in this case was incompatible with the rig size and that it was their recommendation not to pack it and furthermore, if I did I would be in direct violation of the manufacturer's recommendations... thus making the rig unairworthy....and then carrying this a bit more... if I pack an unairworthy rig, seal it and sign it... it's my pee pee on the chopping block 2. jumpers continually bring in these rigs with big reserves, little containers... the other day a master rigger spent over 3 hours trying to close a wings with a reserve about 4 sizes too large-- he will no longer pack a wings container... no matter the size or the amount of money involved.... apparently it was a signifigant emotional event for him... someone has to stand up and stop the insanity... as a general rule we charge the same amount for every rig and have up to this point avoided the urge to charge different amounts for different rigs... but I'm afraid that's going to have to change... time is money and when you spend 4 times the time and expend 10 times the energy on a rig, someone's going to have to absorb the cost 3. Not to sound too self centered or callous on this point, but if this guy were to bounce, the FAA could very easily say, hey buddy, you packed a reserve that is incompatible with the manufacturer's max volume... hand me your ticket, we'll get back to you on the fine because my calculator doesn't have that many zeroes on it and there's some lawyer in the hall talking about you selling your kidneys and indentured servitude or something... 4. and finally and most importantly, I know I could get it in the container and close it... but what I don't know for 100% no shit sure is if that reserve, packed in there, will separate from the container in the manner that RW intended it to, with the pull force it was intended to have, and in the distance the manufacturer intended it to .... I know with a pretty high degree of certainty that if I were to pack a reserve with the appropriate pack volume, into the rig designed to those specs, there's more than a 98% chance that it would function to the manufacturer's specs... sometimes I'm utterly floored by the lack of knowledge displayed by your run of the mill skydiver on what is attached to his back... they order rigs, canopies etc... and want a rigger to make it work... apparently, riggers have a shrink ray or something... people, it's not magic... we're just following instructions and carrying out processes in accordance with established specs and requirements... it's your rig guy, you're the one who is betting your life on it...learn what makes it work, for the love of god, show some interest in what goes on in there.... I decided to become a rigger, not because I lust for the high dollars and rock star lifestyle that riggers all enjoy, but because, I hate not being in control of my destiny... I can change my oil, tie my shoelaces, brush my own teeth and pack my own reserve and main.... I'm not saying that every jumper should be able to pack his main, but jesus, they ought to know the color of it... and generally how the only thing between them and pizza sauce city functions.... oops started a bit of a rant there.... maybe I'm a bit on the anal side, and I'm not saying that I've never packed a reserve that was a bit bigger than the manufacturers recommendations in the past... but what I'm saying now, is that for my own piece of mind, from now on, I'm going by the book and if they dont' like it, they can find a rigger that is willing to fudge things for them or perhaps be a little less anal on the manufacturers req's.... I don't want someone going in on one of my pack jobs... and certainly I don't want to have to ask myself for the rest of my life.... what would have happened if I would have made a stand? (not to be too melodramatic) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #8 March 24, 2004 I'd use you as a rigger. I like the way you think. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #9 March 24, 2004 I wouldn't use you as a rigger, yet. I'd like you to experiment with solutions that all documentation currently available says should not work and have you try and get it to work, or justify your actions in court first. After that, I'd think about it. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #10 March 25, 2004 The way I would "justify myself in court" is the same way I justify every action I perform as a rigger. It's my job to make those decisions...that's why they gave me (and every other rigger) a ticket. If you do some research, you'll find that it is a rigger's responsibility to determine compatibility between components in a certified system. Some further research will yield that pack volumes are not limiting factors when combining components. Any mfg. will tell you that sizing is not exact, therefore, no hard limits exist when combining components and it is the rigger's responsibility to determine compatibility. Pack volumes change based on lots of different environmental variables...no mfg. could ever give you definite numbers, because they change. It's the field rigger who makes the decision on compatibility. Only through experience can a rigger know if a canopy will fit in a given rig. Thats what they're paid for... Riggers can do much more than most people think they can. As issued by the FAA, the ticket makes you the last word in functional responsibility. Some mfgs. don't like for people to know about it, but if you read up on it, you'll find the only thing grander than the scope of practice for an FAA rigger is their tendency to collect rigging tools... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #11 March 25, 2004 Interesting input. It seems you've put more thought into this than I gave you credit for. My apologies! tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #12 March 25, 2004 No need to apologize, you didn't do anything wrong. I learned how to rig in a very progressive loft (which I later took over as Manager when I became a Master Rigger). People generally assume that the mfg. is the end-all-be-all when it comes to gear. Actually, if you ask most mfgs., they'll tell you that they rely heavily on the field rigger to confirm proper operation of a system, and even to act as a secondary QC system. No one is perfect, and the field rigger has a much better chance of making a correct decision or finding a screw up while they're working on the rig, than does the mfg. several hundred or even thousands of miles away. The mfg. is a great source of information (after all, they designed the damn thing!), but the field rigger is really where the buck stops. I used to be in almost constant contact with different mfgs. to get info and find out little nuances about different rig sizes or canopy trims...but thats because I was passionate about what I was doing. I wanted to learn something knew every day, so I went out and found something new to learn. I'm not saying that it's the right thing to do for everyone, but it sure worked for me. And it also gave me an excellent working relationship with the mfgs. and a better understanding of what they were looking for with their product. I was an advocate for both the Mfg. and the Skydiver. Because of that, both sides were happy with the outcome, and I was more knowledgeable at the end of the day. IMO, if more riggers were less scared about mfgs. and saw them for what they are, there would be a lot more really good riggers out in the world. Just because they build it doesn't make them perfect...any of them...they're just skydivers who like to sew. Get to know them, they'll teach you things, and you might even teach them a thing or two! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
