The Result of Our Blown Cover . . .

[wwarped 0]

Quote

You're very wrong actually,

please clarify. do you mean the point where I basically agreed with you? that the current situation is the result of many beyond simply "glory hounds."

Quote

with your head so far up your own arse you can't see it. I really don't give a hoot if you're sympathies lie with Osama Bin Laden my friend.

there is an example of the anger that distorts your posts. (plus you add a red herring to distract from your argument.)

Quote

You assume I need to get you on side to be validated. I really don't.

Quote

I have received many many many words of support from people who have held a BASE number a lot longer than he has.

actually, I made no such assumption. your only motivation I commented on was your anger and bitterness. please point out where I indicated so...

as for validation, you seem to be bragging about having the pack on your side, not I.

Quote

A posed a very straight forward question. What constitutes a glory hound and why do some people take the shit whilst others get a pat on the back.

you also seem to be baiting Nick into an argument. his lack of response evoked a very visceral response from you.

Quote

More and more Nick's posts reflect such antagonism, poison and barely concealed contempt for some imaginary group of modern day jumpers he perceives to be the antithesis of what BASE is supposed to be about.

I was one of the first in this thread to try and point out the error of Nick's views. again, we appear to be in agreement on content. I don't think responding to Nick's "antagonism" with further "antagonism" proves particularly helpful.

I also think you have distorted my comments as I have attempted to show...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[sabre210 0]

This could go on and on, quoting each other against ourselves and picking holes. You jump on me for using sarcasm but find it ok to employ yourself (gloryhounds only from LA???). Remember that opening gambit or was that really a genuine question.

Me. I picked this argument with Nick cos i'm sick and tired of hearing these wishy washy broadsides about how WE (whoever WE is) fucked up the holy grail of BASE by selling out to the masses. It's boring. It's ignorant and it's just plain wrong.

If i come across as angry at Nick, that's because i am. Sorry,(queue sarcasm) i wasn't informed that anger was no longer a valid emotion. I must have missed the meeting when everyone decided that in order to raise an objection you have to voice it in an ever so calm psycho-analytical 'let's talk about your parents' type Oprah tone.(end sarcasm)

I guess i'm more Bill Hicks and you more Bill Cosby.

My anger is perfectly valid, as is Obi's. If that doesn't fit with your view of how arguing should be then that's tough.

Call me old fashioned but when someone insists on coming on here and effectively calling us lousy unethical twats who ass-raped the goose that laid the golden egg just because we are part of some broad (mid late 90's to present day) 'new generation' of MTV whoring jumper, then my reaction is usually to put the gloves on and hit back with some (what i consider to be) home truths.

Nick's a big boy. If he insists on generalising and crow barring us all into some stigmatised pigeon hole then i'm sure it can't come as surprise when individuals take exception and bite back.

Personally, I'm not going to sit back and read this poison without taking exception to it. But that's just me....angry and bitter.

[base428 1]

Perhaps our cover was blown when Carl B. appeared on "That's Incredible" in the early 1980's? Or when all the big names in BASE jumping appeared on "Donahue" in the mid-90's? I still have the Donahue tape in my VHS collection.....

Most of us have shot video, aired video, or done interviews for TV. BASE jumping.....it is what it is. Time changes all things and time will continue to change our sport.

It's true that BASE jumping exposure on TV has increased. But we are also opening new sites, gaining more legal access, and the public is slowly accepting us because of it. BASE jumping today is what skateboarding or BMX was in the 70's. But I don't think BASE jumping is worse off today than it was 25 years ago.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[460 0]

I guess it is because it had been considered an intimate, clandestine, and secretive experience years ago. It feels strange and a little uncomfortable seeing it now in primetime Honda tv commercials with a jumper wearing a business suit.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

18 fatalities this season since november..maybe not the right skis, but equipment and training..definately.

Is there any reaction to that from the general skiing world?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

...your head so far up your own arse you can't see it.

Ease down. You can make your points without resorting to insulting people.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[HydroGuy 0]

Quote

Quote

18 fatalities this season since november..maybe not the right skis, but equipment and training..definately.

Is there any reaction to that from the general skiing world?

Probably none...because 18 deaths out of millions of skiers is less than the number of people who died driving on icy roads traveling to and from a day of skiing.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[RiggerLee 61]

It's interesting that the skiing analogy keeps comeing up. It is in fact perfect. A few years back there was an artical in... Outside Magazine. I don't know if you remember it but it was following the fatality in Ouray, CO. at the ice park. I'll spare the detailes but there was threat of a big law suit. Just the threat was enough to ripple through the insurance companies causeing rate hikes that shut down many out door busnesses. The article was about the history of liability in this country. In point of fact all of this shit started with skiing. A guy got paralised and won a law suit setting a presadent for liability law that has fucked us all. There's more. The ski resorts did not retreat and cower. They were able to get a law passed limeting the liability of a resort. They did this by standing togather not by hideing in the shadows and bickering.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[TomAiello 25]

I think that what I object to on a visceral level is the people who's primary motivations are either attention seeking or financial gain.

The thing that really gets me, though, is when people, especially those motivated primarily by attention seeking or financial gain, know that they are hurting others, and openly declare that they don't care. Even worse is when people do things just because they know it hurts other people.

Here are some examples:

People who will throw anyone off an object for a certain amount of money. This, frankly, turns my stomach. No screening, no thought for student safety, no warnings of the danger. It's not so bad when someone throws their friend, who's general temperment and athletic abilities they are familiar with, off. But when you're willing to take all comers off the street for 50 bucks? This is the guy who says "hey, I don't care, it was a good payday for me."

People who actively downplay the risks involved, especially in an attempt to recruit their friends into BASE jumping, either (a) to score social points, or (b) for the financial reasons given above. These are the guys who say "it's so easy a bag of dogfood could do it" or "it's just as safe as doing a tandem skydive" or "there's no way you could possibly get hurt."

People who actively publicize sites just because they know other jumpers don't want them to (because it can hurt the site's access). These are the guys who post directions to sites on the internet.

People who play up their own skills, experience, etc, regularly in conversation or publications. Usually, this feeds back into the financial gain motivations (although sometimes it's purely attention seeking). These are the guys who give interviews in which they tell the press that they are called "the king of extreme skydiving" or the ones who buy advertisements in magazines with pictures of themselves and the caption "the world's greatest BASE jumper."


Yes, those are all people I've talked to, and they're all people who I've known for some time, and even jumped with, and everything in quotes is something I've either read or heard someone say (in all seriousness) in spoken conversation.



Remember that I'm talking about peoples primary motivations here. Everyone wants to make a couple dollars for their time, and likes people to know their name. But when those desires take over and become the main reason for your participation in BASE jumping, it's time to walk away and find some other venue where real financial rewards, or real fame, are more readily available. Trying to make your millions, or become a regular on television, by BASE jumping is likely to leave you frustrated, but regardless I don't think that people who are primarily motivated by fame and fortune are a good face for us to show to the world, and I prefer that they not be the spokesmen for BASE.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[NickDG 23]

It's hard to qualify everything I say, or said another way, over explain everything, as it makes for bad writing, and I hate that. But I'll try.

Ian (Sabre210) asks, what is a glory hound? And fair enough.

First though, I'll take exception to his saying I'm all about, "it was better in the old days." Do I pine for times passed? Yes. Do I recall a time we were more tight knit? Yes. Do I recall when BASE was more about experiment, invention and discovery rather than just getting educated? Yes. Is BASE light years ahead of where it was, in terms of safety and technique, since I started? Yes.

I'll also forgive you using the insinuation that my being around longer means I don't understand certain things. That's the classic young/old argument and I know you can't help feeling that way. I did the same when I was younger and now regret it, and someday you'll do the same.

My definition of glory hound started before there was the phrase glory hound. And over the years it has changed, and it now means different things to me depending on context. But you asked who gets a pass, and who doesn't and again that is a fair question.

My baseline definition of glory hound is this – someone who uses the sport to further their own goals. I wish I could leave it at that, I mean, I wish everyone could understand what that means, but I know some people won't so here goes.

The early guys, like Carl, et el, do get a pass. They didn't know they had a tiger by the tail. They had no way to see into the future, and especially in Carl's case, yes he made films, that's what he did, and in his case the camera came before the jump. If not for the camera he would never have done the El Cap loads in the first place. In those days nobody was doing "urban" jumps and no one had any reason to hide the deed, or expect fixed object jumping wouldn't be totally accepted as just another cool thing human beings were capable of doing.

Now let's balance Carl's transgressions with what he gave back to the sport. Besides naming the sport, he gave us the first BASE "magazine" in order to spread the word on safety. He gave us the BASE award. And he also gave us an underlying feeling that BASE was special in a Zen sort of way, that admittedly, most of us didn’t understand at the time. Carl set the tone for the following decade of jumping.

I'll put Tommy Sanders almost in the same category as Carl. I've known Tommy since he first started shooting static line first jump photos. He was also a camera man before he got involved with BASE. It was his job. And he always portrayed BASE in a good light with a eye toward its history and a peak into its future. If you look at both Carl's and Tommy's work it can said, and this is important when defining a glory hound, it wasn't about them, it was about the sport.

The gear manufacturers also get a pass. Marta, Anne, etc, and the rest are (or were) promoting their gear businesses and they also put way more back into the sport than they took away. And don’t think they are getting rich either. They are all struggling to this day. And if someone like Todd Shoebotham can get a decent check from Hollywood he more than deserves it. (Are you starting to see where this is going?)

Here's how you can tell a glory hound in five seconds. They use the "I" word a lot. As in I made this jump, I made that jump, I was first, I was fastest, I went furthest, and so on. When you listen to interviews with some of these guys you think they invented the whole damn sport. It's almost like in desperation some of these guys sat down with the idea, "Man, I gotta get famous, and I gotta do it fast, what's an available vehicle?" I know that's simplistic but it's how it seems to me. Look again at the list of jumpers you mentioned, I won’t as some are dead, but measure what they put into the pot versus what they took out of the pot. It doesn't pencil out . . .

Let's compare Tom A. and Felix B. - which one is the glory hound? That's a freaking no brainer. In the big scheme of things who is Felix helping except himself? Which one is "using" the sport? Which one is putting in more than he's taking out?

Even Dwain understood these things before he died. He came to me once and we talked for hours about the history of BASE. He wanted to know everything I knew about Carl and the old days and I'll never forget his saying to me, "You know what, Mate, we are standing on the shoulders of giants."

Sure, that may sound self serving, but its serving not one particular individual, but serving the sport itself. And in that case we could use a few more "positive" glory hounds. Where is today's Carl Boenish? Who's out there explaining the sport in positive terms? Why do we only get, "I only do it for the rush, I like to push myself, I like being on the edge." It's easy to say it's because that's what sells. But it's really because that's all these guys have for sale.

Now in my own case, have I put enough into the pot that I deserve a rant? I think so. I know how much tougher it is to get way with urban jumps today than it was twenty years ago. I know if the cop who nabs me has been exposed to some positive BASE information he might let me go. I know if his exposure to BASE is (just for instance) listening to someone like John A. or even worse John V., my goose is cooked. I know the judge I'm standing in front of isn't going to buy any of my jive concerning, the beauty, the human achievement, or any higher purpose, if he happened to have seen a video where bicycles go crashing down the sides of antenna towers.

A lot of people, jumpers included, are starting to lump BASE jumping into all the other new sports that have come along lately. But it doesn't, and never will, seem that way to me . . .

NickD BASE 194

[sabre210 0]

I don't disagree with any of the points you just made Nick, and i agree wholeheartedly about the overall ethos of keeping the BASE bank account in credit. You take a bit out, you put a bit back.

I just wish you wouldn't default to the assumption that all the ills we face in BASE today are of the 'new generation's making. They aren't. Every generation of jumper has had it's bad apples, it's rebels, it's black sheep. And like most bad habits, they're learned and passed down from a previous generation.

I have no issue whatsoever with anyone reminiscing fondly about their golden days in BASE. In fact i love hearing of others 'in days gone by' tales. But there is a monumental difference between fond nostalgia of times past and bitter contempt for times present.

Instead of containing your loathing for those who transgress, irrespective of era, you seem to now have welded all that is bad with all that is recent. That is a shame, because despite the problems, there are some incredible characters in BASE at the moment, some truly inspirational jumpers, some truly talented jumpers and yes, modern day Carl's and Dwains and Anne's. You're not seeing them obviously but I'd say that's cos you gave up looking.

[SLAMBO 0]

Quote

Quote

18 fatalities this season since november..maybe not the right skis, but equipment and training..definately.

Is there any reaction to that from the general skiing world?

What kind of reaction would you deem necessary from skiers? First of all, choosing the wrong pair of skis usually has nothing to do with it. Its not like a big 200 lb dude buying a fox 200 instead of a 310 for his first BASE jump and bouncing off the concrete. A skinnier ski, well he may sink a little more and get better face shots. Avalanche deaths happen to both experienced and non experienced backcountry skiers.
Most skiers dont even know what an avalanche beacon is, they are just tourist weekend warriors. You cant compare the BASE community and the ski world at all.
I did think your quote of "its so easy dogfood can do it" was hilarious though. Kind of like the Geico commercials, except more original.

[TomAiello 25]

Quote

What kind of reaction would you deem necessary from skiers?

I was asking for information. I didn't have any kind of direction I wanted the answer to go.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Tornolf 0]

This thread makes me wonder if the older jumpers will automatically have a negative bias towards me because I'm still a teenager. My current experience is no, but I haven't met any real old school jumpers yet.

I just looked it up and I was born more than 6 years after the first BASE fatality. I never fully realized how much longer BASE has been around than I have.

A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

[wwarped 0]

Quote

This thread makes me wonder if the older jumpers will automatically have a negative bias towards me because I'm still a teenager.

it will all revolve around how you behave. your age does NOT matter.

I've seen plenty of older jumpers happy to listen to the advice of younger jumpers. I've seen big men listening to young women.

it's all about respect and understanding the other's concerns. it is NOT about age or time in sport.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Ghetto 0]

well tj, i guess it all depends on the ratio between how much 'cute' you cram down their throats and how much 'cute' they can willingly stomach before grabbing your hook knife and gutting you like a baby elephant seal that waddled through the wrong crowd of starving sushi chefs

Web Design
Cleveland Skydiving
"Hey, these cookies don't taste anything like girl scouts..."

[hollyhjb 0]

Quote

I've seen big men listening to young women.

With so many experienced jumpers in my area, it kind of surprises me how many guys come to me for discussions/advice. I think it's an approachable thing. I'm a lot less intimidating than the big guys

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

[MyTwoCents 0]

Quote

With so many experienced jumpers in my area, it kind of surprises me how many guys come to me for discussions/advice.

...must resist comment about gender affecting people's interest in advice.

Shit, where is Abbie when I need him?

[Lonnie 0]

Quote

Quote

With so many experienced jumpers in my area, it kind of surprises me how many guys come to me for discussions/advice.

...must resist comment about gender affecting people's interest in advice.

Ok I'll say it!
Damn Holly I'd come to you for advice too!

NEVER GIVE UP!

[Calvin19 0]

thats about as textbook as it gets for walking into something.

[GaryP 0]

On the subject of the proliferation of newer jumpers
The increased number of jumpers over the past two decades have created market demands that have led to increased technology for which I am thankful - meaning that I no longer have to freestow my X-228+lines into my skydiving Pygmee container and hope for the best. I have also seen the limits of what I thought physically possible change and therefore setting new goals for myself that I would not have or could not have in the 80's. For this I am very thankful (and take my hat off to) to the new breed of jumpers.

On the subject of glory hounds and publicity
So much has been written on this topic and I have not much to add except that the argument usually goues new school scrrewing it up for old school (yaawn). I remember in the 80's it was pretty much common practice to sell urban BASE footage to the media and nobody gave a toss. And how many jumpers today are paying the price for the antics of the FLATBED 10???
To Nick
Respectfully, could you please tell me specifically how you have been personally affected by BASE being more publicised than before. What experiences have you had or what opportunities have you missed that you can attribute to it. I ask because I can't see how my jumping has been adversly affected by more attention to BASE. If anything - there's more understanding in the general public towards what I do and I'm less likely to be called "crazy". I ask because I feel you think this publicity is a bad thing but I'd like to know how you SPECIFICALLY have been affected.

Thanx.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[sabre210 0]

Quote

On the subject of glory hounds and publicity
So much has been written on this topic and I have not much to add except that the argument usually goues new school scrrewing it up for old school (yaawn). I remember in the 80's it was pretty much common practice to sell urban BASE footage to the media and nobody gave a toss. And how many jumpers today are paying the price for the antics of the FLATBED 10???

As Faber would say, Wery wery interesting.

[Mac 1]

Quote

the FLATBED 10???

Quote

Things were so much better years ago

[crazydave44 0]

All this talk about past jumping is making me want to jump now. In the present.

less bitching, more jumping.

I would also like to thank everyone involved that has contributed to this sport and making it what it is today. In the present.

________________________________________
"We make our own rules, We pave our own paths, We write our own destinies, We 'live' our own lives"
________________________________________

[NickDG 23]

Go ahead and open a beer, this is a long one . . .

As I've written before, I was at Elsinore when this happened and the Flatbed Ten, and I knew them all, were not BASE jumpers. They were skydivers and what they did must be looked at in that context. They were skydivers out for a lark, a once in a lifetime (to them) jump, and they went about it like you'd expect skydivers would do any extraordinary jump like a night, balloon, or water jump. It was all about the fun and light on anything else. And I'm not slamming them. They didn't violate any BASE ethics because there weren't any BASE ethnics at the time.

As for how publicity has personally effected me, well in more than a couple of instances in the last two years when turning a corner looking for a stairwell in a dark building under construction I've run into security guards and the old excuses that always worked before don't work so well anymore. "I'm homeless and looking for safe place to sleep," or, "I'm a photographer just trying to get some night shots of the city," just don’t fly. "Your one of those parashooters, aren't you," is what you're more likely to hear now.

After the last time that happened, we were driving away, kinda being quiet, but we died laughing, when a skydiver from Perris, who was ground crewing us, broke the silence with, "Man, you guys got YouTubed . . . "

That may not seem like too big a deal but I see it in terms of past experiences like the time a police officer actually helped Jakey and me hide out while every other cop in town was looking for my blue Jeep. That kind of thing is never going to happen again.

Another thing is we are confusing certain issues. I don't buy if we had kept BASE more on the down low it would have stifled progress. We BASE jumpers have always had a well oiled grapevine that way predates the internet. And when these internet boards first started in the 80s we certainly thought about the consequences of talking about BASE openly but really without thinking much about it we wrote to each other in a kind of code. "We did three DBs from Big Willy last night," wasn't giving much away and wouldn't be really understood by those outside the sport.

And in the very beginning the conversations were light in tone, and we were just having fun with a new toy. Good info was life and speeding up that info saved lives. In those days it was less, "Here's how to do this," and more, "Holy shit, don’t do this!" We were learning by making mistakes. And the internet could disseminate that info to more people faster than any other way.

Before the internet boards started most new BASE jumpers got their info directly from a BASE jumper they met at the DZ, over the phone, and from the various BASE magazines that existed and were circulated in-house. (The internet is was what killed the BASE magazines). Now here's where it gets complicated. When this board (The BASE Zone) started most of us were over on Mick's BASE Board. By that time the affliction, that infected most internet forums by that time, had us at each other's throats. In contrast, there was little anonymity in earlier days as the BASE community was too small to hide behind a fake name. And it kept things honest.

Sure, there was unrest in the BASE community prior to that. I remember how disgusted we all were when Mark kicked the living shit out of John Hoover. Up until that time we'd only had "bonehead" fights. One BASE jumper called another BASE jumper a fucking bonehead, then they'd meet at Bridge Day and one, or the other, got a bloody nose, later both would be dead drunk with their arms around each in brotherhood.

It was then we saw this place, and when I first read the thread description, "If you plan to try your hand at BASE jumping make sure you know what you're getting into. BASE jumping is extremely dangerous and you should clearly understand the risks before you think about it, whether you're a skydiver or not!" I thought cool - because the BASE Fatality List was passing through number 70 I thought maybe we can save a life or two. And that alone would be worth it. I actually first thought posts here would be more on the order of:

Hi,
I'm Bob, I live in Putzville, and I'm interested in BASE.

And the reply would be:

Hi Bob,
See Pete at DZ x-ray, he lives near Putzville.

I also thought this place being moderated would keep the BS to a minimum. It didn't exactly work out that way, and Tom deserves more than the gray hairs he's getting from trying. But the point I'm dancing around is some have said this board and our posting to it is a form of "glory hounding" that is also blowing our cover. And that's right. But maybe not for the same reasons you might think.

There are tens of thousands of forums on the internet. And I believe we tend to think we are so "special" that everybody else is paying attention to what's written here. Don’t kid yourself. In a larger sense no one is paying attention to this. While there maybe the odd "Tool" who comes here for Intel on what we are doing, so what, he already knows what we are doing. But the average web surfer doesn't have The BASE Zone on his Favorites List. But at the same time millions of people check in to see what's going on with You Tube. So blowing our cover there in nothing like just talking about BASE here.

You can see the impact this board has right on this board. How many times have you seen threads up-board asking what people read here and how many skydivers say they never read the BASE Zone? There's more than a few of those. So I'm saying the good this board does is it gives those willing to delve deep enough a good idea of what's going on, who to go see, and how to go about it. And at the same time, despite our trying to do otherwise, we probably sound like blathering idiots and turn people off. Fine, not the most elegant way to do it, but I'll call that another limb, or possibly, even a life saved . . .

I also hear some saying, "Well, this is the internet and it's not real." But no, this is not "virtual reality." This is not a video game or simulation. It may seem like that sometimes and only because I don’t know anymore who I'm talking with. It used to be I knew I was writing to and reading posts from Mike Allen, Andy West, Bill Grim, or Rick Payne, etc. It was "real reality" and we talked to each other like we would face to face. But now I tend to think of all of you as one. Because so many use fake names I run into BASE jumpers in the field who say, "Nick, why are you busting my balls on the board?" And my answer is it's because, "You asshole, I didn't know it was you."

Seriously, I can't tell the Miltons, from the Slambos, from the Sabre210s, so I (and it's my bad) tend to lump you all together as the collective YOU. One thing we could fix, and in these days of legal BASE, it wouldn't be that big of a deal - is post under our real names. What are we afraid of? I've been doing it for over twenty years and they haven't come for me yet. (Yes, I know there would be exceptions to that, but I also know most use the privilege to stir the pot and nothing else.) I think if we did post under our real names we would self moderate a bit what we said to each other. But I also know I'm pissing in the wind with that idea.

My active BASE career is in its waning days. My judgment and reflexes aren't what they were even five years ago and I find myself walking way from more jumps than I'm making. I'm not a wingsuiter, an aerialist, or a gear guru. The only thing I can bring to the table anymore is a helping hand and some perspective because I've been around so long. If that's not useful to the majority of you guys just say so outright and sooner or later I’ll bail out altogether.

But meanwhile this place is very "real" to me. People I connect with here come to my house; they eat my food, drink my beer, and ogle my girlfriend. We even jump together sometimes. And it doesn't get any realer than that . . .

NickD BASE 194