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greeny

Toxic PC's

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Found a thread on Blinc, but can't log in or re register:

Who is building the TOXIC PC's?
Who can give me more in formation on them?

Greeny

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Abbie's got em in stock. Also a good explanation about their construction.

Splatula Rigging
- Harvey, BASE 1232
TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA

BLiNC Magazine Team Member

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Does anybody have a pic they can post of the attachment point of one of these?

I can see why the single attachment point is an improvement, but how is cutting each section better?
Doesn't the integrity of having ONE circular piece of ZP leave less chance for error/ inconsistency?

What does "greater degree of manufacture" and "tighter tolerances" translate to, If I'm looking at a $175 Toxic PC and a "regular" PC, that were built by the same person at the same facility? Just wondering as I am going to build a couple of ZP vented PC's for myself someday soon here.

**edited for clarity**

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I have a few for you to check out...
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

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just this weekend I was switching between my toxic 42 and a regular av 42 after having used the toxic for awhile. Noticed a difference of time from pitch to inflation, the toxic seemed quite a bit faster.
The indivual pieces create a more true round inflated pc with less distortion of the edges. I definately reccomend them.

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Just my random opinion:
I've had mine from when they first came out (I honestly can't remember exactly when that was) and whenever I hear someone even mention the Toxic my first thoughts are "I *love* mine!" When I first packed it, I was a little worried that with ZP at the apex it would slip, but the feel of it at pitch time is amazing. I've done some silly, unscientific, inflation tests with it and my old one of the same size from BounceProof (mainly throwing them off of things with some weight) and the Toxic inflates noticeably quicker (I did not take any actual measurements). This thing has a nice solid snatch force that you can feel when "airing it out" before packing it.

Basically, I'm in love.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

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Anybody got a pic they can post...? Or feel like taking a pic (that shows the amazing differences) and posting it?

I gotta see what is so great about these things.

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I don't have a camera with me, so no pic for now. It is very noticeable to me when using the Toxic. On 1-2 sec handheld and stowed delays with a 42, I can definitely tell the difference from time of pitch to time of linestretch. The effect seems greater when going stowed on short delays.

I'll try and get some action shots of it later today.
A waddling elephant seal is the cutest thing in the entire world.
-TJ

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The micro-second longer it takes for a F111 PC to inflate is actually benefical to the jumper - because the PC will fully inflate overdead and it offers longer groundrush!!! B| Quicker inflation is actually counter productive for the jumper - i.e. it begins pulling the canopy at an unfavorable angle. And yes, using differnt halves or quarters of material for a PC (regardless of texture - ZP, F11, Balloon ZP, denim, silk, etc) will impose varying degrees of integrity and consistency and thus contribute to varying degrees of outcomes unfavorable to the user - i.e. oscillation! Although Marty makes some beautiful and elaborate BASE equipment...$175 for a PC is crazy! Unless you're jeb corliss...paying that kind of dough will take away from your precious travel funds. Is the PC encrusted with diamonds...?
JJ

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Quicker inflation is actually counter productive for the jumper - i.e. it begins pulling the canopy at an unfavorable angle.



I don't really buy that, expect maybe in extreme cross wind conditions, I don't really see quicker inflation of a pilot chute as ever being an issue. Seems like a good thing to me. Can you explain this better to me?

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what he is saying is...

when you throw a PC out, it is to the right of your line of fall, (or left if your JT) and if it inflates to the right, it will take the canopy out and pull it to the side.
with a slightly-slower inflating F111 PC, the pc might be able to come directly into the fall line. making it a symmetrical extraction.

while i personly dont buy that F111 pcs take more than .000001 second to open compared to ZP, his point is sound.

-SPACE-

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I agree with JJ on about 99% of this.

The F-111 PC will move to bridle stretch (to the side), then come back to center, and then inflate in the ideal position, centered over the jumpers back.

The ZP PC will tend to inflate when it hits bridle stretch, off to one side, which tends to increase the rate of oscillation during deployment, which is one factor that reduces heading performance.

To dramatically oversimplify: F-111 PC's tend to give better opening heading than ZP. (please remember that's a real oversimplification of a much longer and more complex process)


One thing that can bring ZP up to the standard of F-111 in this regard (point of initial inflation relative to jumper/pack tray) is the direction of the jumpers pitch. If you are pitching directly upward (as popularized by DW and RS for ultra low freefalls) at exit, your ZP PC will inflate in the same position as an F-111 PC (directly over your back). The F-111 is still better "vented" (since it's essentially equally vented across it's entire surface) than the ZP, and can dampen further oscillations better, but that's not terribly important because, assuming good (symmetric) attachment, further oscillation is unlikely (and of small magnitude if it does occur).

So, for very low freefalls, with a directly upward pitch, I'd still want to go with ZP over F-111. I mostly say this because I know what kind of things the original poster is into. ;)
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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...but how is cutting each section better?



You might want to search through this forum for the thread titled Pie Slice Pilot Chutes.

In summary, cutting each slice individually allows the block/bias to be rotated, resulting in a PC that essentially has no overall bias (hence is significantly less prone to deformation than a standard "one circle" cut PC).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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For the record... I don't really notice a difference in inflation between a typical Asylum PC and a Toxic.

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when you throw a PC out, it is to the right of your line of fall, (or left if your JT)



Hey now, he's not the only lefty!

And on the other topic here...does anyone possibly have video of an oscillating PC where the canopy does not have an off heading?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" ~Adam Savage

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This is a response to the few posts that claimed to see a noticeable difference in deployment time with their 42 after a few second delay... I repectfully say, bullshit. The design of the Toxic and it's pie slices is supposed to reduce oscillation due to lack of deformation in the bias of the zp fabric or so I learned from Marty. I just cannot imagine that one zp pilot chute would be even fractionally faster in lifting a canopy off my back than any other zp pilot chute, given that they are both the same size and age. If the super clean design of the Toxic actually did speed up the process, it would be by such a micro fraction of a second, that I know a human in freefall would never be able to really feel the difference. I'm sure you can be so happy with your new Gucci pilot chute that you may swear it's way faster, and if it makes you feel better about your purchase, hey, who am I to bring you back to reality? Now what happens with that pack job, i.e. oscillation, is an entirely different subject. I know Marty makes some fine products, and I don't doubt that the Toxic may be the next chapter in zp pilot chutes and addressing oscillation.
$175.00? I could buy two F-111's and a twelve pack.
The only way I would ever pay that kind of money for a pilot chute is where it would really count and all that engineering would be put to the test, terminal jumps. I'll wait and see, the Toxic will have to be damn special to replace my F-111's.

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This is a response to the few posts that claimed to see a noticeable difference in deployment time with their 42 after a few second delay... I repectfully say, bullshit.



Agreed. I jump both Toxic and non-Toxic pilotchutes and haven't noticed a difference in the twenty jumps I've done with them each. Maybe that's not enough jumps, but I'd be very surprised if there was a noticeable difference. At best the rate at which hesitations occur drops, but significant hesitations are quite rare to begin with (for most jumpers anyway).

A warm and fuzzy feeling is great, but I don't think my next PCs will be Toxic. I'm the last person to cut budget on life-saving equipment, but a Toxic is a lot of money.

I wonder if Marty will make F111 Toxics (without the vents, but with the pie-slices).

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so what your saying is I can pull lower with the toxic and get even more ground rush right?:D Have you jumped both pc's on back to back jumps?

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I've acutally moved on from BASE...but I did a lot of research in collaboration with BR (namely Annie) on the PC matter...so I can't say I've done back to back research using Toxic and non-toxic PCs. We did however toy with the idea of a wider circular vent -vent being less than 1 inch in width but about 8 inches round - but decided the benefit would not be worth the work - i.e. nobody would buy a $200 dollar pc. BUT, we came back to another idea - went retro - F111! I like to say...think of it as the most advanced PC available today - it has millions of perfectly spaced micro-scopic vents, greatly reducing the forces that cause oscillation! I would just like to add that F111 PCs are most effective on sub-term slider up jumps...

Pie slices on any PC is NOT a good idea altho it looks cewl!

And finally, yes...you can pull lower using a ZP PC>>>but only a fraction of a second - which may seem like a loooong time when you are quickly meeting the ground! Ground rush rules!!!
Be safe, be smart - jump F111!!!
JJ

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Have you jumped both pc's on back to back jumps?



I have. I've also watched and shot video of them on back to back to back to back jumps (on the same load, and on successive loads). If I ever get to the end of my list of things to do, I'll try to put some of that video on line. My current impression is that the Toxics are (a) noticeably better built, (b) more durable, (c) have about the same oscillation damping/oscillation rate as other vented ZP pilot chutes, (d) on jumps with little or no oscillation perform the snatch/extraction functions virtually identically to other PC's.

I do not think that any PC (ZP, F-111, Vented, Toxic, whatever) that I've ever seen can actually create a faster deployment than any other. I'm not saying that it's not possible--I just haven't seen it yet.

I'm a bit at a loss to say how it might be possible (since virtually all PC's will vent the same amount of air--it's just a question of where they do the venting) for one PC to have noticeably more snatch and drag than any other unless one of the two was actually constructed so poorly that it didn't drag well at all (not the case with 95% of the BASE PC's I've seen, and 100% of the BASE PC's currently being sold new).
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Pie slices on any PC is NOT a good idea altho it looks cewl!



What leads you to this conclusion? Did you guys test this configuration and come up with problems, or just find them not any better than others?

For what it's worth, I've talked to several tandem manufacturers who recommend building drogues in pie slices for increased stability. Some of the other tricks they've come up with (side venting, increasing the size of the mesh relative to the topskin, etc) have yet to be tried in BASE.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Abbie's got em in stock.



Abbie told me yesterday that all he has in stock at the moment are Asylum A/V 42" and 46" PC's, no Toxics or regular (non-vented) PC's.
-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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It's called staging the pilot chute to place it directly above you after the pitch. It depends on how you pack your pilot chute independent of material. This has been the most critical factor for me in getting on heading openings.

DW has popularized the pitch up method head high method for super low jumps but it was known experimentally by many jumpers before him.

If there is less chance of an oscillation though through a new technology, I would take it regardless of cost. Many a jumper in the past wished they had spent a little extra money on better gear while sitting in the hospital in traction.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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