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MyTwoCents

Background checks, background checks, background checks, please!

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They dont want to die either so they will try to find the right way to do it ..



when I didn't know enough, I watched a friend with fear in his eyes. he jumped and wanted to live. he did, but suffered through an amputation.

fear did NOT keep him healthy. he FAILED to find the right way.

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I dont encourage to be misinformed or not to put forth an their best efort.



is blindly selling gear to anyone "encouraging them to put forth their best effort?"

calling you up and saying "here is your money" doesn't sound like it takes much effort...
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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when I didn't know enough, I watched a friend with fear in his eyes. he jumped and wanted to live. he did, but suffered through an amputation.

fear did NOT keep him healthy. he FAILED to find the right way.

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I dont encourage to be misinformed or not to put forth an their best efort.



is blindly selling gear to anyone "encouraging them to put forth their best effort?"

calling you up and saying "here is your money" doesn't sound like it takes much effort...



First off sorry to hear about your friend. Though times are different now. Info is everywhere if you can read, and if people are WILLING they will inform you as well. The second is one of the main issues now adays.

Also..I am sorry sorry now that i see i have to point out sacasm to you every time i post.
My point was (for the ones who find nothing entertaning or amusing ...(sarcasm)

Sell your gear ask questions see what they plan to do with it, give them some sugestions if you think they need them.
Oh and of course if they ask for knowledge and you happen to know it.. share it with them.
Yet they still dont need a background check they are not enrolling into the FBI or CIA.
And remeber boys and girls you are not better than them so dont treat them that way!

There it is ...That is my point wrapped up in a few short sentences for the mildly retarded...(sarcasm).

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You really have to love how some people need to be Nazi's and do background checks on everyone, THEY think, is not worthy of jumping in their domain.
Maybe it's time those people woke and saw how unpopular they really are and how little they really know and what a risk those people are, not only thanks to their good advice, but to themselves as well.

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You really have to love how some people need to be Nazi's and do background checks on everyone, THEY think, is not worthy of jumping in their domain.
Maybe it's time those people woke and saw how unpopular they really are and how little they really know and what a risk those people are, not only thanks to their good advice, but to themselves as well.



so no background checks?
don't bother checking the credentials of someone:
- asking to jump in your area
- buying your old equipment
- teaching a FJC

it looks like you are new to this forum (being your first post and all). be aware your idea might prove unpopular. we have some harsh posters here highly critical of at least one instructor based on background/experience.:ph34r:
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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Thanks for the advice.
I may be new on here but I know some of the types of people who like to espouse nothing, but their own opinions.
Yes, I agree with you, background checks are necessary to preserve the wholehearted integrity of not only the local jumpers, but the sport itself.
It's just when individuals begin to attempt to govern a sport like this and tell those who they think are worthy, or maybe not worthy, of jumping off what they assume, are their cliffs, antenna's, etc.
Diamond had the best advice earlier. We should help newbies, not hinder them.
Thanks for the post and the ideas as well Wwarped and Diamond.

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You teach a kid how to shoot before you
let them go out on their own with a gun.

You teach a teenager how to drive before you
let them go out on their own and drive.

You teach a new skydiver how to fly stable and
maintain altitude awareness before you let them
go out and jump on their own.

It only makes sense that one would ask a few simple
questions before giving them a BASE rig.

I'm a newbie, have gone through it myself, and have
never felt bad or slighted about talking for 5 minutes
with a fellow jumper about my limited experience.
Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

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It's just when individuals begin to attempt to govern a sport like this and tell those who they think are worthy, or maybe not worthy, of jumping off what they assume, are their cliffs, antenna's, etc.



I enjoy BASE because it can NOT be governed. I recently discovered a nice object to enjoy. to my knowledge, no one else has ever jumped it. I could be wrong.

I'll use care introducing others to it. but hey, if they discover it on their own... so be it. the only way to stop them jumping is to narc on them. very uncool. and I'd still lose the object...

SBK does govern their object. they seem to do a good job. but that object has unique access issues.

some view sites like this one as definitive. it is not. it's not a bad place to start, but feel free to grow beyond what is found here.
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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...when I didn't know enough, I watched a friend with fear in his eyes. he jumped and wanted to live. he did, but suffered through an amputation.



Who put your friend off for that jump? Was there any background checking before the jump? Do you think that the guy who PCA'd him learned anything?

Whoever PCA'd him should have sat there with him for a couple hours afterward, facing the enormity of his mistake, learning all about your friend's life, and how it was going to be changed, trying to deal with the bleeding. He should have held his hand and tried to talk him through the shock and panic.

Perhaps that experience could teach him a valuable lesson or two.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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Who are these new guys that you and Seth have differences of opinion about?

Has anyone tried to teach and help them? Has anyone opened their home to them, or given them any instruction at all? Have they been charged for that instruction?

I'm sure that it's you that have been doing all those things, right?
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I am not just having differences of opinion with one person and i am not talking about a few newbie isolated instances. I am talking in general how everybody has to play the governor, sherriff and now the CIA.
Ah, and yes if someone asks for my input or advice i will always answer them or if i can not - point them in a good direction where they can get their answers. I am all about helping people who want information and hopefully i help to make their days safer ones.

***so no background checks?
don't bother checking the credentials of someone:
- asking to jump in your area
- buying your old equipment
- teaching a FJC

[reply to that load of bull]

Again, you dont need to go that far, again base isnt the CIA. If you would all share information there would be no need for most newbies to lie to you. They wouldn't feel if they gave you the wrong answer you wouldnt deal with them anymore. Instead they would know that you are willing to show them or tell them the proper way. Therefore no need for "background checks" you would them be able to ask them questions and they could respond with their answers. Thats all, its not hard to find out if they know what they are doing or not. I shouldnt have to feel the need to call the dropzone or call their friends in order to prove if they have knowledge or not.
Now,
If they want to jump in your area, I am not saying take them on a highly technical jump your first time out with them. Just take them to something You feel is a good start for your area and something that will help you "judge them" so you can tell if you are still better than them or not --- Because that what you really want to do is be better and have control over someone right?.....

(WARNING: THE PREVIOUS SENTENCES MIGHT CONTAIN A LITTLE DOSE OF SARCASM - UNFORTUNATELY THOSE WHO FEEL THEY ARE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO LAUGH ABOUT THIS TYPE OF HUMOR)

***I'm a newbie, have gone through it myself, and have
never felt bad or slighted about talking for 5 minutes
with a fellow jumper about my limited experience.



[reply to the lucky on above]
And that is the way it should be, and my point again all they needed was to talk with you. They didnt have to do a "background check" talk to your dropzone or call your employer or friends. Hopefully it will fully evolve into people actually talking to one another face to face instead of finding out about "YOU" from soomeone else!

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Checking into someone's preparation is part of helping them. It allows you to know what they've done, to suggest areas they might want to work on, and to tailor instruction to their specific needs.

It also gives you the opportunity to guide them to more complete preparation (if they aren't quite ready), and also to guide them to experienced jumpers local to them, who can help them as they progress.

Background checks aren't a "win-lose" situation. They're a "win-win" situation. They benefit the new jumper (who gets help with preparation, connections with locals, and better tailored training), they benefit the locals (who get to meet new guys coming into BASE in their area), and they benefit the instructor (who gets a better idea of a student's preparation and experience).


Talking to as many people as possible is one of the most effective ways to gather information about anything (including people).

It's a little absurd to suggest that we ought to all be helping everyone in the world without bothering to find out more about them. It seems like a limited perspective might lead you to that conclusion, but unfortunately people who actually are currently engaged in helping new jumpers learn quickly learn that there are so many prospective new jumpers that some kind of system is necessary to provide quality instruction to anyone, rather than just giving everyone a quick shove and hoping for the best.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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***It's a little absurd to suggest that we ought to all be helping everyone in the world without bothering to find out more about them.

[reply to the ridiculous and out of context sentence above]

Some people apparently have reading problems now and again.

You can gain info on someone with out doing a background check through other people! A small but big point! EASY 321
Talk to the person you are wanting to know info about they will tell you all you need to know from a first hand account of it all. Well that is unless the person trying to get the info acts above them. Then all you will get is crap, though that is basic human psychology you piss farther trying to be better than someone they will piss on you!!!(or your friend)

***Talking to as many people as possible is one of the most effective ways to gather information about anything (including people).

[reply of what you COULD do]
For other issues ...maybe... for this issue...
One of the most effective -- that is questionable. Who knows more about an individual than THE individual?
Of course you could go about it how you stated but it is not needed if you cant talk to the source, you know -- the person you are inquiring through other people about!


(WARNING: THE PREVIOUS SENTENCES MIGHT CONTAIN SARCASM AND IT IS UP TO THE READER TO FIND OUT WHERE THAT SARCASM MIGHT BE)

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Why would someone be doing a background check without talking to the subject? I can't think of a situation in which this would actually happen. Can you?

It's impossible to be totally unbiased about your own capabilities and experiences. Talking to someone about their own background is very useful (and is always the first step, because they've contacted you directly, right?), but it's also very valuable to check things with more objective 3rd parties, and also with other people who have an interest in things in their area (like site preservation).

It's not like people are running around writing up supersecret dossiers on new BASE jumpers. We're talking about a very straightforward process in which a new or prospective jumper initiates contact with an experienced jumper seeking to purchase gear (or get instruction or whatever). The experienced jumper talks to them about their background and preparation, then verifies that information with 3rd parties, and at the same time gets other feedback from those same 3rd parties.

If all you do is take someone at their word, I am afraid that you are likely to (a) do them a huge disservice if their self-assessments aren't totally objective (and how could they be?), and (b) get taken advantage of with some frequency.

When they tell you "I'll pay you for that rig as soon as I get it in the mail" do you take them at their word? Or do you try for some kind of assurances (a deposit, an intermediary, a physical meeting)?

It sounds like you are either (a) phenomenally lucky, or (b) an insanely good judge of the character of people, even people you may never have physically met. While I am very impressed at your abilities, I must admit, with some sadness, that I am not nearly as lucky and capable as you in this regard.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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It's not like people are running around writing up supersecret dossiers on new BASE jumpers.



They're not??? :o



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Forget that; how can I get Hank to come visit me? ;) - Ether



I think Hank's girlfriend might have a dossier on you :o
Web Design
Cleveland Skydiving
"Hey, these cookies don't taste anything like girl scouts..."

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[Quote]Why would someone be doing a background check without talking to the subject? I can't think of a situation in which this would actually happen.
Can you?

[maybe you responded to fast and missed a few words that you meant to jot down in your reply]

Ah, you first line is utterly ridiculous and has no bearing on my posts. ALL I AM SAYING IS A BACKGROUND CHECK IS UNNEEDED AND IS PUSHING FARTHER THAN SOMEONE NEEDS
TO GO INTO ANOTHER PERSONS HISTORY. Again I will say --all you need is love...wait a minute thats John Lennon. ALL YOU NEED IS TO TALK WITH THE PERSON DIRECTLY. PERIOD We arent traing to do super secret cover ups and stuff here. Last i heard Kennedy was all ready dead.


[Quote]It's impossible to be totally unbiased about your own capabilities and experiences.


[My --that sounds like a personal problem-- Reply]

I am unsure of your point. When I talk about my self I know am the best at everything I do! Aren't you?
Anyhow.


[Quote]Talking to someone about their own background is very useful (and is always the first step, because they've contacted you directly, right?),
but it's also very valuable to check things with more objective 3rd parties, and also with other people who have an interest in things in their area
(like site preservation).

[I am getting sleepy reply]
PLEASE REREAD MY PREVIOUS POSTS. I AM TIRED--- IS THERE SOMEWHERE I CAN RECORD MY VOICE SO YOU CAN PLAY IT BACK IN YOUR SLEEP?
Apparently some of you will forever have reading problems. My advice is to just keep on pushing through, eventually you will succeed, understand and come
to grips with what is going on in the world around you.


[QUote]It's not like people are running around writing up supersecret dossiers on new BASE jumpers. We're talking about a very straightforward process in
which a new or prospective jumper initiates contact with an experienced jumper seeking to purchase gear (or get instruction or whatever).
The experienced jumper talks to them about their background and preparation, then verifies that information with 3rd parties, and at the same time
gets other feedback from those same 3rd parties.

[all hope is lost reply]
Yada yada yada... REMEMBER...if you put the record on repeat it might help.

Actually they are...

***If all you do is take someone at their word, I am afraid that you are likely to (a) do them a huge disservice if their self-assessments aren't
totally objective (and how could they be?), and (b) get taken advantage of with some frequency.

[You are gettting sleepy Reply]

I am not saying take them by their word. I am saying 99% of the time you can tell by talking to someone if they are filling you full of crap or not though.
Maybe YOUR self-assessment isnt totally objective and maybe thats why you have issues with what i am talking about...but most dont hold themselves so high
so it doesnt seem to be that big of a problem.


[Quote]When they tell you "I'll pay you for that rig as soon as I get it in the mail" do you take them at their word? Or do you try for some kind of
assurances (a deposit, an intermediary, a physical meeting)?

[It's MONEY Reply]

Of course not but that has to do with money. Have you ever heard the saying "dont trust you friends with your money or your wife"?


[Quote]It sounds like you are either (a) phenomenally lucky, or (b) an insanely good judge of the character of people, even people you may never have
physically met. While I am very impressed at your abilities, I must admit, with some sadness, that I am not nearly as lucky and capable as you
in this regard.


[You can call me Jahovah reply]

I guess some of you will never understand my points, for a few of you will think you are always right. One final thought ---- You know how cults are made?
They keep drilling information into your head until you agree with them! And if you prove they are not right they will change thier words until it would appear that they are.

---EDITED DUE TO FORGETING TO INCLUDE MY SARCASM CLAUSE------
(WARNING: THE PREVIOUS PARAGRAPHS CONTAIN SARCASM)

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[Quote]
You know how cults are made?
They keep drilling information into your head until you agree with them! And if you prove they are not right they will change thier words until it would appear that they are.

[sarcasm]
wow, is THAT what you were doing!
here I thought you might be open to new ideas. my bad.
[/sarcasm]

I guess it would take effort on your part, which appears lacking. heck, you can't even be bothered to close a quote.

I'd hate to depend on your advice. I can see why your "student" moved on...
DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

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uh oh you caught on to my evil little plan ehh?

I am glad you finally are getting into the spirit of it all and have finally found a little sense of humor!
So much progress in so little time.

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I guess it would take effort on your part, which appears lacking. heck, you can't even be bothered to close a quote.




How was that did i do a good job? Though, I kind of like how it angles out if you don't close them, it makes me feel like i am writing alot more than i am.
Anyhow thank you for the writing lesson.. ....Please if you dont mind i would like to sign up for another course? Looks like i need help with punctuation. Do you offer a class on that?

***I'd hate to depend on your advice.I can see why your "student" moved on...

[I left this one open just for you]

Hmnn... never claimed to have a "student" i did teach and show some peolpe a few things to get them into this sport. I never claimed to know everything and still dont. But every year or two i still have 1 or 2 good ideas. I didnt charge or hold any classes. As always i would suggest going and getting info on such a dangerous past time from as many different people as possible. That way you can find out what is relevant for yourself, for we all are different.
(but cheers on the snappy comment though...) Heres mine.....
I would hate to depend on you period we all ready know how your friends end up..... scared and armless

I sure hope your new found sense of humor continues to grow and you or yours dont get mad for i am just being sarcastic. Also i hope any of my last statements won't hurt anyones feelings for i am just messing around now.

A final note maybe this will make wwarped happy... I see there is no need for me to throw any new ideas out there. Apparently no one likes new ideas not even me :(

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[Quote]. ALL I AM SAYING IS A BACKGROUND CHECK IS UNNEEDED AND IS PUSHING FARTHER THAN SOMEONE NEEDS
TO GO INTO ANOTHER PERSONS HISTORY.



As a BASE instructor I wish to tell you of a few incidences. I encountered one German sociopathic liar who had duped a major rig manufacturer. I was able to contact most of the contacts given by the Mentor and tell the real deal about this nonjumpers history to the contacts given. The guy was a quite agile liar. Quite intelligent. He could lie faster than most can think. Why the hell he would do this I still have not a clue. The guy was talking shit the whole time (lying about experience). I don't ever want to play god and decide if what a person wants to do is good or bad. I just don't want anybody to do stupid crap and die in front of me on my fav sites. It gets hard to eat when one has observed exploding bodies and your food turns into that piece of flesh that you saw richocheting off the wall of the best cliff that you've been perfecting you track off of. Maybe Mr. Sociopathic liar could have been a great BASEr. But I am not going to give him that chance and I am going to rat him out to all that I know so that they know his background. If that is his life dream to to bullshit people and that makes him happy and content, I will not say that it is wrong. I will just say that I disagree and and will not cooperate. I think that one should do whatever floats one's boat. But also there is a responsibility to be responsible for the boat that one floats. I am finished with example number 1.
Example number 2:
Skydivers lying about their experience level in BASE or skydiving. I've witnessed and ground crewed for almost 10,000 jumps. The jumpers who lie about their experience leve put themselves in a position that they don't ask for advice from anyone because they may figure out that they are not experienced. So they are committed to doing bad exits for lots of jumps. I knew they lied after seeing their exit and said that we had a free course for problem exits and they were welcome to partake. The amount of money they wanted to save by not taking a FJC equaled to 4 pizzas IIRC.
Example number 3.
I did a background check after a jumper died. It helped nothing. He had lied about his jumping history. I knew he was fucked when I saw his exit. My mind was screaming "get it out!!". After that, I don't eat mashed potatoes any more but his background check showed that he had no BASE experience unlike what he had put on his data sheet.
Did I save example 1 by doing a background check?
Did I kill Example 3 by not doing one before he turned into mashed potatoes with ketchup? I think that in the end it is meaningless. You have to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some will take advantage of this and your eating habits will change as you see them pay the ultimate price for living and dying their dream. But who are you or I to stop some one from living or dying their dream? Just do the best you can for a new jumper. Try to discourage them. If you can't then you must mentor them no matter how challenging they may be.
take care,
space

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